| Re: offering cash to dispute UN climate panel: report
Mauried <mauried@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 02:18:03 GMT, Bill Baka <bbaka@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Bernd Felsche wrote:
>>> Bill Baka <bbaka@comcast.net> writes:
>>>> donquijote1954 wrote:
>>>>> On Feb 2, 4:37 pm, tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com (Brent P)
>>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> The belief in human caused global warming is being used to gain
>>>>>> more control over the population, to consolidate wealth, to end
>>>>>> any sort of freedom of the masses, and put the whole world in
>>>>>> the control of a small group of elites.
>>>
>>>>> I thought that was the job of Globalization.
>>>
>>>>>> I will believe that human caused global warming is a serious
>>>>>> issue when and only when, nations like China are forced to do
>>>>>> something about it. Right now, things like the Kyoto treaty are
>>>>>> designed simply to relocate manufacturing from places where
>>>>>> there _ARE_ environmental protections to places where there are
>>>>>> practically _NONE_. They expect us to believe that CO2 released
>>>>>> in Ohio is bad, but CO2 released in Tianjin is of no concern.
>>>>>> Not to mention all the pollution controls that are required in
>>>>>> Ohio, the limits, the regulations, all to keep the environment
>>>>>> cleaner but simply don't exist in other places in the world like
>>>>>> China.
>>>
>>>>> It's not Kyoto, but America that is feeding China. Go to Walmart
>>>>> or the Dollar Store if you don't believe me.
>>>
>>>> Bingo.
>>>> Hit the nail right on the head. Bush can praise our 'progress'
>>>> while we are supporting a Communist country that could care less
>>>> about pollution. Meanwhile they are taking away our jobs while
>>>> they do their thing, which seems to be taking our money.
>>>
>>> This is not just consumer-driven. It's also market-driven and an
>>> ethical issue... beyond CO2 etc, but of the value of work.
>>>
>>> Put it this way; if you value your own work at $2/day, then feel
>>> free to buy products from a nation where that is the "standard"
>>> wage. However, don't begrudge the people of those countries the
>>> fruits of their labour. Fair prices need to be fair to all. That
>>> provides the greatest incentive and freedom of choice across the
>>> range.
>>>
>>> I know of no economic or political system that can impose the
>>> necessary balance. Historically; systems that try to impose fairness
>>> become corrupt.
>>>
>>> Consumer education is important; giving them sufficient information
>>> on what they are buying, how it is made and who really makes the
>>> money from the products that they buy. Only then can a choice based
>>> on equity be made.
>>
>> Agreed.
>> The average consumer will often buy based on price alone with no
>> regard of where the product came from. The problem is that as long
>> as Joe consumer has a job, he doesn't care that by buying from
>> another country his is taking his neighbor's job. Then a few years
>> later he gets the dreaded 'pink slip' and wonders what happened.
>> What goes around comes around.
>> All of my older stuff, bicycles included came from either the U.S. or
>> Japan, depending on what market and how old. I remember shopping
>> with a friend as a kid around 1959 and the store had what we called
>> a "Japanese junk" section.
>> At that time a foreign car meant European and a foreign motorcycle
>> meant a BSA or Triumph.
>> Fast forward and the companies have folded and the people and skills
>> have gone too.
>> Progress?
>> Maybe for the Chinese, but not for us.
>> Suddenly the biggest polluter is also the biggest producer.
>> If we didn't buy from China we would be crippled at this point, and
>> the politicians don't mention the obvious fact that getting our
>> manufacturing base back is at least as important as the oil issue.
>> Too big a subject for this group, and way off the mark for bicycles,
>> so, umm, later.
> There is no mechanism to force China to do anything,
> short of declaring war and invading the country,
Corse there is, we can refuse to buy what they produce.
Fortunately hardly any of us are actually that stupid.
> and I cant see anyone wanting to do this.
Yeah, even the shrub aint actually THAT stupid.
And he's completely irrelevant now anyway.
> Coal fired power is with us for a long time to
> come,and I suggest we all learnt to live with it.
That is precisely what we are doing.
> Whether global warming is real ,or isnt real , or
> whether its man made or not are all totally irrelevant.
No it isnt when we have alternatives like nukes which are the obvious
way to deal with a substantial source of CO2 if we decide that CO2
levels are a real problem that needs something done about it.
> Whats relevant is how we deal with the consequences.
> China isnt the only problem.
> Other large populated countries like India and Pakistan
> will all follow Chinas lead as they need cheap plentiful
> energy for exactly the same reasons that China does.
That is just plain wrong. Very few of them will ever be able
to dominate manufacturing so completely as china does now.
> Expect to see many more Coal Fired Power Stations being built.
Great, they can buy our coal to burn in them.
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