Cycling Mob Cycling Forums - View Single Post - "Humans 'very likely' making earth warmer" is wrong

02-08-2007, 04:17 PM

Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:29:55 -0500, "R.H. Allen" <kkarie@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Curtis L. Russell wrote:
>>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:42:04 -0500, "R.H. Allen" <kkarie@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You're just describing the centuries-old rift between Catholics and
>>>> Protestants (some of whom, primarily Lutherans, still accept the primacy
>>>> of the Pope). If I were Catholic I'm sure we could get into a heated
>>>> debate about it.
>>> I assume that you somehow mean that SOME Lutherans accept the primacy
>>> of the Pope.
>> Precisely. Sorry if my wording was confusing. Though I think that to say
>> they accept the *primacy* of the Pope is a bit strong -- they accept the
>> doctrine of apostolic succession, which opens the door to papal primacy,
>> but the degree to which such non-Catholic churches accept primacy varies
>> (and for the most part, the non-Catholic churches that accept this are
>> Eastern churches rather than Protestant ones).
>>
>>> While I am not aware of any, and am aware that the three
>>> largest Lutheran churches in the U.S. do not, I guess it could be
>>> true. Like to hear the name of the Lutheran Church and where it is
>>> located. It could be true, but I doubt it.
>> As I recall, they call themselves Evangelical Lutherans, Evangelical
>> Catholic Lutherans, or some variation thereof. I guess a specific
>> example would be the Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran, an offshoot
>> of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. They follow an episcopal polity,
>> their priests are ordained according to apostolic succession, and they
>> won't ordain women until such a time as the Pope okays it. Here's one I
>> was able to find in Kansas City via Google:
>>
>> http://www.ecclnet.org/
>
> The answer, then, is no, the major Lutheran Churches do not recognize
> the primacy of the Pope.

I made no claims about the major Lutheran churches, only that there
exist some Lutheran churches that accept papal primacy.

> Apostolic succession as recognized by the Lutheran churches does NOT
> in any way recognize the primacy of the Pope - rather, it is a claim
> that the sources of the church go back in succession to Peter. That
> does not in anyway make the current Pope his avatar. So, no, apostolic
> succession does not equal papal primacy.

Hence my weakening that statement in my last message, though there are
smaller Lutheran churches that do appear, in the information I can find
about them, to make the jump all the way to papal primacy. Aside from
the one I linked to in my last message you'll find a few if you google
"evangelical catholic lutheran", and in the external links section here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Evangelical

Some don't go all the way to papal primacy, but some do. That's all I
ever said.

> The small church that you indicated does show deference to the Roman
> Catholic church and the Pope. It can't hold some of the listed dogma
> and doctrine and hold belief in the primacy of the Pope without
> reservation. And while it is evidently HQ'd and started in Missouri, I
> rather doubt much connection to the Missouri Synod. If they came from
> there, they would have had to reconstitute apostolic succession.

Evidently they did, as apparently it was founded by former members of
the Missouri Synod and explicitly accepts papal primacy and papal
infallibility:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangel...hurch-Lutheran

Of course, it's Wikipedia, but if you click through the sources on the
church's own site I think you'll get pretty much the same picture
painted by Wikipedia.

At any rate, there are evidently folks running around the planet who
call themselves Lutheran, conduct services in a Lutheran tradition, and
accept the primacy of the Pope. All I ever claimed is that such folks
exist. If you don't believe me, fine, you don't have to.

02-08-2007, 04:17 PM	#510 (permalink)
R.H. Allen Posts: n/a	Re: Why are SUVs and Christianity similar? Curtis L. Russell wrote: > On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:29:55 -0500, "R.H. Allen" <kkarie@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >> Curtis L. Russell wrote: >>> On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:42:04 -0500, "R.H. Allen" <kkarie@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> You're just describing the centuries-old rift between Catholics and >>>> Protestants (some of whom, primarily Lutherans, still accept the primacy >>>> of the Pope). If I were Catholic I'm sure we could get into a heated >>>> debate about it. >>> I assume that you somehow mean that SOME Lutherans accept the primacy >>> of the Pope. >> Precisely. Sorry if my wording was confusing. Though I think that to say >> they accept the primacy of the Pope is a bit strong -- they accept the >> doctrine of apostolic succession, which opens the door to papal primacy, >> but the degree to which such non-Catholic churches accept primacy varies >> (and for the most part, the non-Catholic churches that accept this are >> Eastern churches rather than Protestant ones). >> >>> While I am not aware of any, and am aware that the three >>> largest Lutheran churches in the U.S. do not, I guess it could be >>> true. Like to hear the name of the Lutheran Church and where it is >>> located. It could be true, but I doubt it. >> As I recall, they call themselves Evangelical Lutherans, Evangelical >> Catholic Lutherans, or some variation thereof. I guess a specific >> example would be the Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran, an offshoot >> of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. They follow an episcopal polity, >> their priests are ordained according to apostolic succession, and they >> won't ordain women until such a time as the Pope okays it. Here's one I >> was able to find in Kansas City via Google: >> >> http://www.ecclnet.org/ > > The answer, then, is no, the major Lutheran Churches do not recognize > the primacy of the Pope. I made no claims about the major Lutheran churches, only that there exist some Lutheran churches that accept papal primacy. > Apostolic succession as recognized by the Lutheran churches does NOT > in any way recognize the primacy of the Pope - rather, it is a claim > that the sources of the church go back in succession to Peter. That > does not in anyway make the current Pope his avatar. So, no, apostolic > succession does not equal papal primacy. Hence my weakening that statement in my last message, though there are smaller Lutheran churches that do appear, in the information I can find about them, to make the jump all the way to papal primacy. Aside from the one I linked to in my last message you'll find a few if you google "evangelical catholic lutheran", and in the external links section here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Evangelical Some don't go all the way to papal primacy, but some do. That's all I ever said. > The small church that you indicated does show deference to the Roman > Catholic church and the Pope. It can't hold some of the listed dogma > and doctrine and hold belief in the primacy of the Pope without > reservation. And while it is evidently HQ'd and started in Missouri, I > rather doubt much connection to the Missouri Synod. If they came from > there, they would have had to reconstitute apostolic succession. Evidently they did, as apparently it was founded by former members of the Missouri Synod and explicitly accepts papal primacy and papal infallibility: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangel...hurch-Lutheran Of course, it's Wikipedia, but if you click through the sources on the church's own site I think you'll get pretty much the same picture painted by Wikipedia. At any rate, there are evidently folks running around the planet who call themselves Lutheran, conduct services in a Lutheran tradition, and accept the primacy of the Pope. All I ever claimed is that such folks exist. If you don't believe me, fine, you don't have to.