electric bikes on centuries - Page 5 - Cycling Mob: Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and More

01-31-2007, 04:38 AM

Bill Bushnell wrote:
:: In rec.bicycles.misc Mike Jacoubowsky <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
::: As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News
::: about newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations
::: (max speeds 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles),
::: I'm thinking yeah, same old stuff that's been out there, heavy,
::: expensive to repair, cause parts & frame failures on modified bikes
::: etc.
::
:: I see fewer electric bikes than recumbents on the road. Sounds like
:: the newspaper is trying to drum up interest. But, I think electric
:: bicycles have a place if it results in fewer motor vehicle trips or
:: keeps someone from abandoning bicycling. In any event, the number
:: of followups to this thread indicate a degree of interest.
::
::: Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design
::: he's trying to bring to market that will go over 100 miles on a
::: charge, at speeds greater than 30mph.
::
:: I happen to know that it requires about 400 watts at the wheel to
:: propel one particular semi-faired recumbent similar to the one
:: described in the article at a speed of 30 mph on level ground. To
:: sustain this speed on level ground for three hours and twenty
:: minutes (100 miles) without pedaling would be possible with about
:: 40-50 lbs of the most energy-dense Lithium-Ion batteries
:: commercially available today.
::
:: On a course with hills the most efficient way for a fit cyclist to
:: use a power assist is on uphills only. When used only on uphills to
:: supplement significant pedaling effort, battery energy consumption
:: of approximately 350 watt-hours per 5000 feet climbing can be
:: observed.
::
::: What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or,
::: for that matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So
::: far, it's been a non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no
::: longer an issue...
::
:: As an organizer of a non-competitive and non-timed event I'd be
:: concerned about the following:
::
:: 1) Do I have any reason to believe that the operator of a power
:: assisted bicycle intends to ride in a hazardous or illegal manner?

Would you? Fear of the unknown creating bias?

::
:: 2) Could I lift the thing onto a bike rack or into a motor vehicle
:: if it had to be SAGged (or can the heavy bits be removed easily
:: prior to lifting)?
::

At 75 lbs, that's easily the weight of 3 bikes. I imagine this would be a
serious drawback. I've been on some rides where the some of the sag staff
were female. And small, too.

Also, I can see removing wheels, but other parts?

Of course, I wonder how this compares to sagging my lwb 'bent? That thing
won't fit on a typical bike rack and with the seat it may not fit in a lot
of cars if you remove the front wheel.

:: 3) ICE (internal combustion engine) assists would not be welcome.
::

Yeah.

01-31-2007, 06:00 AM

On 31 Jan 2007 06:32:38 GMT, Bill Bushnell <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

>As an organizer of a non-competitive and non-timed event I'd be concerned about
>the following:
>
>1) Do I have any reason to believe that the operator of a power assisted bicycle
>intends to ride in a hazardous or illegal manner?
>
>2) Could I lift the thing onto a bike rack or into a motor vehicle if it had to
>be SAGged (or can the heavy bits be removed easily prior to lifting)?
>
>3) ICE (internal combustion engine) assists would not be welcome.

1) and 2) don't make sense. Plenty of unassisted bicycle riders ride
irresponsibly. One of the major issues at some fund raisers, for
instance, is the number of inexperienced riders that think the rules
of the road have been lifted because the Heart Association or the
Cancer Fund sponsor the ride. A disclaimer will work as well, for good
or bad, as for a bicycle. As to 2), its enough to set the rules of the
sag. We've had to tell tandem riders that there was no sag wagon
capable of taking a tandem (much less a tandem recumbent) and if they
were picked up, it would be up to them to store the bike somewhere
until they came back to pick it up. FWIW, that happens on real sags
(I've done well, well over a hundred) with regular bikes when your car
or van is full and all you have room for is the rider. You give them a
choice and they make it.

No ride guarantees the riders a perfect riding experience. The best
you can do is make sure the course has no distinctly unsafe areas, the
turns are marked well, and you keep the sags going until you know the
course is clear. People deal - I remember being a sag on a major ride
that was hit by an unexpected deluge - almost literally. We were
making unsafe vehicle crossings to get to some of the stranded
cyclists near the creeks and rivers. Remarkably, most complaints were
that once they got back to the tent, they had to run about 100 feet
through the rain to get to the portapotties. Fortunately, we didn't
run out of beer... (the tough choice was, if I drink another beer,
I'll have to eventually run through the rain again. The resolution
generally was, what the hell, I'm already wet.)

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

01-31-2007, 07:48 AM

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:59:07 -0700, "Daryl Hunt"
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> may have said:

>I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric Bicycles
>(legal term).
>
>First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10 mile run.
>Range past that just isn't really going to happen. Claiming otherwise is
>sort of like claiming that your Moutain Bike can maintain 30 mph over a 60
>mile race.

Breathalysers can usually shed a lot of light on such claims.

In any event, more than half of what's required in order to go 30mph
for 60 miles is a rider who's capable of that level of sustained
output. Bikes sold with such claims wouldn't be marketed to the
riders who might be able to achieve the result with a *suitable* bike,
because even the marketing people are smart enough to know that the
real racers are not going to believe the hype. Well, *most* of them
won't, anyway.

>And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200
>mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are helping the
>motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you want to finish the last
>half of the race pedalling that extra 40 pounds or so.

Nasty laws of physics, we hates them! Give us a nice fantasy world
where we can do what we likes!

>I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low Speed Electric
>Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as an absessed tooth.

Actually, in a non-race long-ride setting, I think some of the snobs
would welcome (or at least not snub) *certain* riders aboard an
electric-assist bike. If the rider has a physical limitation (other
than simple lack of conditioning) which makes it impractical or
impossible to participate without the assist, even the majority of the
purists would, in my limited experience, accept such a rider and bike.
You're still right, though. There would be a group that would stand
well away, never approach, say nothing supportive, and make snide
remarks; it would just be much smaller than would be the case if the
assisted bike was being used by (for instance) a mere couch potato.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

01-31-2007, 08:02 AM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
"Roger Zoul" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

> :: 1) Do I have any reason to believe that the operator of a power
> :: assisted bicycle intends to ride in a hazardous or illegal manner?
>
> Would you? Fear of the unknown creating bias?

Depends. Some people get or build an electric bike because they really
want a stealth motorcycle. Most electric bicycles and operators would
fit right in. But if one installs a powerful motor and enough batteries
on a bicycle, you have a motorcycle. An operator of such a vehicle may
be more interested in speed and if ridden ridden to that end could be a
hazard to the other participants.

> :: 2) Could I lift the thing onto a bike rack or into a motor vehicle
> :: if it had to be SAGged (or can the heavy bits be removed easily
> :: prior to lifting)?
> ::
>
> At 75 lbs, that's easily the weight of 3 bikes. I imagine this would be a
> serious drawback. I've been on some rides where the some of the sag staff
> were female. And small, too.
>
> Also, I can see removing wheels, but other parts?

I'm thinking of batteries. It's not reasonable to expect a SAG driver
to dead-lift 70 lbs of electric bicycle onto a roof rack. Remove the
batteries and you have, say, 40 lbs, which may still be an effort for
some. The electric bike designed as a stealth motorcycle, laden with
batteries, is more likely to require SAG because the range of such a
machine will likely be limited.

--
Bill Bushnell
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

01-31-2007, 08:32 AM

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> As I'm reading an article in this-morning's San Jose Mercury News about
> newfound popularity of electric bikes, and their limitations (max speeds
> 25mph or less; need to be recharged after 8-20 miles), I'm thinking yeah,
> same old stuff that's been out there, heavy, expensive to repair, cause
> parts & frame failures on modified bikes etc.
>
> Then the article mentioned that an engineer has a recumbent design he's
> trying to bring to market that will go over 100 miles on a charge, at speeds
> greater than 30mph. And at that point I'm wondering-
>
That's about a 5X improvement over what anyone else can manage, with
relatively-small batteries.... -unless he's using five times the normal
amount of batteries, that is (~100-150 lbs of batteries). Or unless he
found a really-long hill to test it out on.

Advancements DO occur, but honestly--the market for e-bikes is really
rather tiny. There's lots of other uses that such an improvement would
be far more profitable in (just for one example, I'm typing on one now:
laptop-computer batteries and laptop-computer cooling fans).

Also, a lot of e-bikes are limited to 20 mph because that's the US
federal specification for an e-bike.

> What's gonna happen when people try to show up on a century (or, for that
> matter, any other organized bike ride) on one of them? So far, it's been a
> non-issue due to limited range. But if that's no longer an issue...
>
Well, the event can just say "no motorized bikes allowed". The insurance
may not even cover them.
~

01-31-2007, 11:04 AM

OldGirl wrote:
> A couple of clarifications:
>
> 1. There is a federal law that states that if a bicycle has an electric
> motor and is limited to a top speed of 20 mph, it is a considered a bicycle.
> This preempts the state laws. Some states have a broader definition, some
> require pedals some don't. But in all 50 states an electric bike limited to
> 20 mph is a bike.
>
> 2. There is an electric bike currently capable of going 100 miles on a
> charge (if you count the main battery plus auxiliary batteries). The rider
> has to make a significant pedalling contribution for the charge to last that
> long, and fully loaded with auxiliary batteries it weighs about 75 lbs, but
> it does pretty much look like a mountain bike. Here is the link:
> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>
>
I took a look and can say that the bike looks less than ideal. If it has
a motorized bottom bracket then there is no possibility for regenerative
braking, which is a big NO-NO in the electric world. They are also
making flaky claims like it was in a 103 mile ride, but (small print)
with a battery change.
The marketing guys are burying the truth in hype, as usual.
Bill Baka

01-31-2007, 11:11 AM

Daryl Hunt wrote:
> "Bill Baka" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
> news:ikNvh.5701$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].prodigy.net ...
>> Curtis L. Russell wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:16:04 -0600, Werehatrack
>>> <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> AFAIK, power-assisted vehicles are not accepted for entry in
>>>> sanctioned bicycle events, period.
>>> Sanctioned? By who? LAB isn't sanctioning any centuries in the sense
>>> of setting rules (or taking responsibility). USCF/USAC wouldn't permit
>>> power assist of course, but they don't have many clubs applying for
>>> permits for 100 mile TTs - most such TTs are 40 kilo or so.
>>>
>>> I'm guessing any fund raiser would take anyone with an entry fee and
>>> just disregard them for any distance based prizes. I doubt that too
>>> many of the LAB clubs I've done events with would turn them away -
>>> they would probably just tell them to ride responsibly. Of course,
>>> since there are few closed course centuries, your choice is to accept
>>> them or have them along unofficially. You can keep them out of your
>>> feed areas, but you can't keep them off the course.
>>>
>>> Curtis L. Russell
>>> Odenton, MD (USA)
>>> Just someone on two wheels...
>> We have an annual event here called "Bike around the Buttes", which is a
>> fund raiser for diabetes. The entrance fee is $20.00 and I get a tee shirt
>> out of it. The ride distances can be 10, 20, 40, 60, or 100 miles and they
>> state that it is definitely NOT a race. Electric assist bikes are allowed
>> but I have yet to see one. I usually ride the 60 mile course so I can get
>> in on the lunch and social part of things. During the ride I can speed up
>> an chat with a group of people then go up to the next group, etc. There
>> are always a few hot shots who think it is a race and blast by everyone in
>> their brightest Dayglow outfits, but they are not that social to the
>> casual riders, as if they are a lower class rider.
>> There are usually only about ten of them and they keep to themselves like
>> a little snob group.
>> The rest of us just chat and ride at anywhere from 8 to 15 MPH and enjoy
>> the company.
>> Riders range from 18 to 80+, so it is a very mixed group, and I would not
>> deny an 80 year old participant from riding an electric on a charity ride.
>> The ride is in early April so if anyone wants to verify my observations
>> just come on over and sign up.
>> Bill Baka
>
> I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric Bicycles
> (legal term).
>
> First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10 mile run.
> Range past that just isn't really going to happen. Claiming otherwise is
> sort of like claiming that your Moutain Bike can maintain 30 mph over a 60
> mile race. And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200
> mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are helping the
> motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you want to finish the last
> half of the race pedalling that extra 40 pounds or so.
>
> I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low Speed Electric
> Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as an absessed tooth.
>
>
>
This is not a "Pure" cyclist event, but, as I said there are about a
dozen "Pure" roadies who make no attempt to socialize with anyone not
dressed in full cycling gear and a $3,000 bike. They would probably
allow an 80 year old granny on an elder's tricycle if she wanted, so it
is a really open event. I almost expect to see a 400 pound person on an
electric wheelchair replacement thingy some day.
It is California, after all, so nothing can be ruled out.
Bill Baka

01-31-2007, 11:15 AM

Bill Bushnell wrote:
> In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
> "Roger Zoul" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>
>> :: 1) Do I have any reason to believe that the operator of a power
>> :: assisted bicycle intends to ride in a hazardous or illegal manner?
>>
>> Would you? Fear of the unknown creating bias?
>
> Depends. Some people get or build an electric bike because they really
> want a stealth motorcycle. Most electric bicycles and operators would
> fit right in. But if one installs a powerful motor and enough batteries
> on a bicycle, you have a motorcycle. An operator of such a vehicle may
> be more interested in speed and if ridden ridden to that end could be a
> hazard to the other participants.
>
>> :: 2) Could I lift the thing onto a bike rack or into a motor vehicle
>> :: if it had to be SAGged (or can the heavy bits be removed easily
>> :: prior to lifting)?
>> ::
>>
>> At 75 lbs, that's easily the weight of 3 bikes. I imagine this would be a
>> serious drawback. I've been on some rides where the some of the sag staff
>> were female. And small, too.
>>
>> Also, I can see removing wheels, but other parts?
>
> I'm thinking of batteries. It's not reasonable to expect a SAG driver
> to dead-lift 70 lbs of electric bicycle onto a roof rack. Remove the
> batteries and you have, say, 40 lbs, which may still be an effort for
> some. The electric bike designed as a stealth motorcycle, laden with
> batteries, is more likely to require SAG because the range of such a
> machine will likely be limited.
>
I have only had take advantage of a SAG ride once (rain) and the van was
already crammed to the max. Fitting an electric or bent in would have
been impossible. The SAG guy was more than a little busy collecting wet
and frozen cyclists.
Bill Baka

01-31-2007, 01:10 PM

In rec.bicycles.misc Bill Baka <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
> I took a look and can say that the bike looks less than ideal. If it has
> a motorized bottom bracket then there is no possibility for regenerative
> braking, which is a big NO-NO in the electric world.

Regenerative braking is overrated. The best implementations of regenerative
braking occur on electric bikes with hub motors, and even then there are limits
on the current that can be dumped into a battery. If one rides in hills, the
overall efficiency is higher when running a smaller, lighter motor through the
bicycle's gears.

Below is a link to a white paper that discusses why regenerative braking is
generally not practical on electric bikes.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

--
Bill Bushnell
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

01-31-2007, 03:00 PM

Bill Bushnell wrote:
:: In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
:: "Roger Zoul" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
::
::::: 1) Do I have any reason to believe that the operator of a power
::::: assisted bicycle intends to ride in a hazardous or illegal manner?
:::
::: Would you? Fear of the unknown creating bias?
::
:: Depends. Some people get or build an electric bike because they
:: really want a stealth motorcycle. Most electric bicycles and
:: operators would fit right in. But if one installs a powerful motor
:: and enough batteries on a bicycle, you have a motorcycle. An
:: operator of such a vehicle may be more interested in speed and if
:: ridden ridden to that end could be a hazard to the other
:: participants.
::
::::: 2) Could I lift the thing onto a bike rack or into a motor vehicle
::::: if it had to be SAGged (or can the heavy bits be removed easily
::::: prior to lifting)?
:::::
:::
::: At 75 lbs, that's easily the weight of 3 bikes. I imagine this
::: would be a serious drawback. I've been on some rides where the
::: some of the sag staff were female. And small, too.
:::
::: Also, I can see removing wheels, but other parts?
::
:: I'm thinking of batteries. It's not reasonable to expect a SAG
:: driver to dead-lift 70 lbs of electric bicycle onto a roof rack.
:: Remove the batteries and you have, say, 40 lbs, which may still be
:: an effort for some. The electric bike designed as a stealth
:: motorcycle, laden with batteries, is more likely to require SAG
:: because the range of such a machine will likely be limited.

Yeah, that exactly what I was thinking....removing a wheel is one thing, but
anything beyond that is a bit much.

::
:: --
:: Bill Bushnell
:: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]