electric bikes on centuries - Page 8

02-01-2007, 10:48 PM

On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:05:16 -0600, Patrick Lamb
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> may have said:

>On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 06:39:48 GMT, Janet <janet@nospam.nojunk> wrote:
>>But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to become a
>>non-couch potato might need a little assistance going uphill while in
>>the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe just having a little
>>help with the tougher parts will keep the couch potato from becoming
>>discouraged by the process.
>
>Before the thread got hijacked by the "right" crowd, I think the
>question being discussed was whether or not the electric assist would
>actually help going uphill, and whether or not it was worth the extra
>weight on the remainder of the ride. I might have missed something,
>but I thought the consensus was "no" to both questions.

The direct question was "What's gonna happen when people try to show
up on a century (or, for that matter, any other organized bike ride)
on one of them? So far, it's been a non-issue due to limited range.
But if that's no longer an issue...", and it seemed clear to me from
context that the intent was to explore the reaction of the event
coordinator and participants.

I agree, though, that the fucntional answer to your query is "no"; the
electric-assist bike that's a viable candidate for a century (even a
metric) is neither on the market, nor likely to appear in the near
future, claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

>>That said, there will always be the "tour-de-France wannabes" who will
>>snub anyone that isn't a fellow wannabe (and must have the "right"
>>clothes, the "right" bike, etc)
>
>That's one beauty of a century -- there's 100 miles to lose those
>kind.

Seldom takes very long IMLE.

--
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Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

02-02-2007, 01:56 AM

Daryl Hunt wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
:: news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]...
::: Janet wrote:
::::: Werehatrack wrote:
:::::: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:59:07 -0700, "Daryl Hunt"
:::::: <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> may have said:
::::::
::::::
::::::: I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric
::::::: Bicycles (legal term).
:::::::
::::::: First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10
::::::: mile run. Range past that just isn't really going to happen.
::::::: Claiming otherwise is sort of like claiming that your Moutain
::::::: Bike can maintain 30 mph over a 60 mile race.
::::::
::::::
:::::: Breathalysers can usually shed a lot of light on such claims.
::::::
:::::: In any event, more than half of what's required in order to go
:::::: 30mph for 60 miles is a rider who's capable of that level of
:::::: sustained output. Bikes sold with such claims wouldn't be
:::::: marketed to the riders who might be able to achieve the result
:::::: with a *suitable* bike, because even the marketing people are
:::::: smart enough to know that the real racers are not going to
:::::: believe the hype. Well, *most* of them won't, anyway.
::::::
::::::
::::::: And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200
::::::: mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are
::::::: helping the motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you
::::::: want to finish the last half of the race pedalling that extra
::::::: 40 pounds or so.
::::::
::::::
:::::: Nasty laws of physics, we hates them! Give us a nice fantasy
:::::: world where we can do what we likes!
::::::
::::::
::::::: I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low
::::::: Speed Electric Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as
::::::: an absessed tooth.
::::::
::::::
:::::: Actually, in a non-race long-ride setting, I think some of the
:::::: snobs would welcome (or at least not snub) *certain* riders
:::::: aboard an electric-assist bike. If the rider has a physical
:::::: limitation (other than simple lack of conditioning) which makes
:::::: it impractical or impossible to participate without the assist,
:::::: even the majority of the purists would, in my limited
:::::: experience, accept such a rider and bike. You're still right,
:::::: though. There would be a group that would stand well away,
:::::: never approach, say nothing supportive, and make snide remarks;
:::::: it would just be much smaller than would be the case if the
:::::: assisted bike was being used by (for instance) a mere couch
:::::: potato.
::::::
:::::
::::: But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to
::::: become a non-couch potato might need a little assistance going
::::: uphill while in the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe
::::: just having a little help with the tougher parts will keep the
::::: couch potato from becoming discouraged by the process.
:::::
:::
::: Hmm....there seems to be a lot of better ways for couch potato to
::: improve....I doubt many would ever think of doing this.
::
:: This one did. In fact, it was such a good idea, I became an Electric
:: Bicycle Dealer. And I lost 20 lbs in the process.

One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose weight.

02-02-2007, 07:52 AM

On 2007-02-01, Daryl Hunt <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>
> The real kicker is in the intent of the law. The S.1156 does quote a NHTA
> law showing it's exemption from being treated as a Motorized Vehicle.
>
> SEC. 2. MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS.
>
> For purposes of motor vehicle safety standards issued and enforced
> pursuant to chapter 301 of title 49, United States Code, a low-speed
> electric bicycle (as defined in section 38(b) of the Consumer Product Safety
> Act) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section 30102(6)
> of title 49, United States Co
> Then we have to look at section 30102(6) of title 49. This is the
> definitions by NHTA standards of what a Motorized Vehicle is. And according
> to S.1156, HR 727, Presidential Executive Order and the Consumer Protection
> Act, the low speed electric bike as define is exempt from 30102(6) of title
> 49 as a Motorized Vehicle.
> You mighti wish to look at Title 49.
> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I have looked at Title 49, and I stand by my claim that it doesn't pertain
to operating or licensing of vehicles, only safety standards.

That said, I'm not a lawyer. I don't believe that you're a lawyer, either.
Thus, we might as well be arguing angels on the head of a pin. Eventually,
things will settle out, due either to pressure from electric bike
manufacturers, or from consumers, and the laws will (slowly) become more
uniform.

To take thisthread back to its origin, let ride organizers decide whether
electric assist is allowed on their rides -- that's their right, at least
for SAG'ing and timekeeping purposes.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
(_)/ (_)

02-02-2007, 09:41 AM

"Roger Zoul" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]...
> Daryl Hunt wrote:
> :: "Roger Zoul" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
> :: news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]...
> ::: Janet wrote:
> ::::: Werehatrack wrote:
> :::::: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:59:07 -0700, "Daryl Hunt"
> :::::: <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> may have said:
> ::::::
> ::::::
> ::::::: I think there are a few reasons you don't see Low Speed Electric
> ::::::: Bicycles (legal term).
> :::::::
> ::::::: First of all, they would only be really able to ride in the 10
> ::::::: mile run. Range past that just isn't really going to happen.
> ::::::: Claiming otherwise is sort of like claiming that your Moutain
> ::::::: Bike can maintain 30 mph over a 60 mile race.
> ::::::
> ::::::
> :::::: Breathalysers can usually shed a lot of light on such claims.
> ::::::
> :::::: In any event, more than half of what's required in order to go
> :::::: 30mph for 60 miles is a rider who's capable of that level of
> :::::: sustained output. Bikes sold with such claims wouldn't be
> :::::: marketed to the riders who might be able to achieve the result
> :::::: with a *suitable* bike, because even the marketing people are
> :::::: smart enough to know that the real racers are not going to
> :::::: believe the hype. Well, *most* of them won't, anyway.
> ::::::
> ::::::
> ::::::: And don't forget about that carberator that gets your car 200
> ::::::: mpg. Now, you can go the long distance but, even when you are
> ::::::: helping the motor by pedalling most of the time, I doubt you
> ::::::: want to finish the last half of the race pedalling that extra
> ::::::: 40 pounds or so.
> ::::::
> ::::::
> :::::: Nasty laws of physics, we hates them! Give us a nice fantasy
> :::::: world where we can do what we likes!
> ::::::
> ::::::
> ::::::: I think the biggest is that the "Pure" cyclists make the Low
> ::::::: Speed Electric Bicycles (pedal assist) feel about as welcome as
> ::::::: an absessed tooth.
> ::::::
> ::::::
> :::::: Actually, in a non-race long-ride setting, I think some of the
> :::::: snobs would welcome (or at least not snub) *certain* riders
> :::::: aboard an electric-assist bike. If the rider has a physical
> :::::: limitation (other than simple lack of conditioning) which makes
> :::::: it impractical or impossible to participate without the assist,
> :::::: even the majority of the purists would, in my limited
> :::::: experience, accept such a rider and bike. You're still right,
> :::::: though. There would be a group that would stand well away,
> :::::: never approach, say nothing supportive, and make snide remarks;
> :::::: it would just be much smaller than would be the case if the
> :::::: assisted bike was being used by (for instance) a mere couch
> :::::: potato.
> ::::::
> :::::
> ::::: But you ignore the possibility that a couch potato trying to
> ::::: become a non-couch potato might need a little assistance going
> ::::: uphill while in the process of getting into decent shape. Maybe
> ::::: just having a little help with the tougher parts will keep the
> ::::: couch potato from becoming discouraged by the process.
> :::::
> :::
> ::: Hmm....there seems to be a lot of better ways for couch potato to
> ::: improve....I doubt many would ever think of doing this.
> ::
> :: This one did. In fact, it was such a good idea, I became an Electric
> :: Bicycle Dealer. And I lost 20 lbs in the process.
>
> One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose weight.

There might be but this is the one I chose and it works without a heavy
impact on anything including my swiss cheeze knees.

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02-02-2007, 09:45 AM

"Kristian M Zoerhoff" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:E%Jwh.6056$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].prodigy.ne t...
> On 2007-02-01, Daryl Hunt <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>>
>> The real kicker is in the intent of the law. The S.1156 does quote a
>> NHTA
>> law showing it's exemption from being treated as a Motorized Vehicle.
>>
>> SEC. 2. MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS.
>>
>> For purposes of motor vehicle safety standards issued and enforced
>> pursuant to chapter 301 of title 49, United States Code, a low-speed
>> electric bicycle (as defined in section 38(b) of the Consumer Product
>> Safety
>> Act) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section
>> 30102(6)
>> of title 49, United States Co
>> Then we have to look at section 30102(6) of title 49. This is the
>> definitions by NHTA standards of what a Motorized Vehicle is. And
>> according
>> to S.1156, HR 727, Presidential Executive Order and the Consumer
>> Protection
>> Act, the low speed electric bike as define is exempt from 30102(6) of
>> title
>> 49 as a Motorized Vehicle.
>> You mighti wish to look at Title 49.
>>
>> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>
> I have looked at Title 49, and I stand by my claim that it doesn't pertain
> to operating or licensing of vehicles, only safety standards.
>
> That said, I'm not a lawyer. I don't believe that you're a lawyer, either.
> Thus, we might as well be arguing angels on the head of a pin. Eventually,
> things will settle out, due either to pressure from electric bike
> manufacturers, or from consumers, and the laws will (slowly) become more
> uniform.
>
> To take thisthread back to its origin, let ride organizers decide whether
> electric assist is allowed on their rides -- that's their right, at least
> for SAG'ing and timekeeping purposes.

Actually, I don't see a short (10 mile) ride being a problem with anyone for
both Electrics and Non Electrics. I do see a 100 mile run as more than a
little problem. 40 lbs or so of extra weight and it can only be done
smartly with a MB or a Cruiser, the 100 miles would not be done by anyone
other than a real fanatic.

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02-02-2007, 12:19 PM

Roger Zoul wrote:
> One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose weight.

Bzzzt.
Better how?
Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self and
maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals.
When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can (you can)
lose weight even while eating more.
Why not get the benefit of exercise?
Bill Baka

02-02-2007, 12:25 PM

Bill Bushnell wrote:
> In article <tyywh.57696$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].prodigy.net> ,
> Bill Baka <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>
>> The electric could, as you say "help" on the hills, but not enough power
>> in any batteries I have ever seen for multiple thousands of feet.
>
> You must have missed one of my followups.

Entirely possible with these really active threads.
>
> 5000 feet of climbing on 350 watt-hours has been observed with a not
> particularly lightweight but efficient pedal assist system, geared
> properly, in combination with a significant contribution of a fit
> cyclist's pedaling power.

Gearing was my concern about using an electric to climb with. If it is
geared for flat street use then it may not be much help in a climb.
The method of getting the power to the road is a big factor in how
efficient the motor can run.
>
> 350 watt-hours is possible with a 24volt/20Ah lead-acid battery that
> weighs about 30 lbs. Using a Lithium battery of equivalent weight ought
> to give three times this much climbing range.
>
Lead-acid batteries get killed pretty fast with a full discharge so I
would think that a NiMh would be the minimum battery technology to use.
Lithium might work better (It will) but cost too much.
It seems to be a matter of how much do you want to spend.
Bill Baka

02-02-2007, 03:02 PM

"Bill Baka" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:iVNwh.57746$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].prodigy. net...
> Roger Zoul wrote:
>> One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose weight.
>
> Bzzzt.
> Better how?
> Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self and
> maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals.
> When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can (you can)
> lose weight even while eating more.
> Why not get the benefit of exercise?
> Bill Baka

I don't think he means riding a bike. It appears the same feelings we get
out in the RW for our Low Speed Electric Bikes also prevail in here to some
extent.

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02-02-2007, 06:44 PM

Kristian M Zoerhoff <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>
> To take thisthread back to its origin, let ride organizers decide whether
> electric assist is allowed on their rides -- that's their right, at least
> for SAG'ing and timekeeping purposes.

Very few electric vehicles perform well at 100 mile range.

A bicycle with electric assist carries a huge weight penalty
and a very modest energy advantage, if any. This question
will only become important if electric bikes start _winning_
centuries consistently.

The world would be a better place if that happened.

bob prohaska

02-03-2007, 07:12 AM

Daryl Hunt wrote:
:: "Bill Baka" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
:: news:iVNwh.57746$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].prodigy. net...
::: Roger Zoul wrote:
:::: One is not many. And I still think there are better ways to lose
:::: weight.
:::
::: Bzzzt.
::: Better how?
::: Cycling gets you into Cardio shape better than starving your self
::: and maybe not getting enough Vitamins and minerals.
::: When I get serious about riding in the spring and summer I can (you
::: can) lose weight even while eating more.
::: Why not get the benefit of exercise?
::: Bill Baka
::
:: I don't think he means riding a bike. It appears the same feelings
:: we get out in the RW for our Low Speed Electric Bikes also prevail
:: in here to some extent.
::

You're correct, Daryl. And it's not so much that I object to what you did
to lose your 20 lbs and stop being a couch potato..that's fantastic! I was
just saying that as a means to drop some weight, there are some better ways.
That's all. In the end, of course, whatever method one chooses and finds
works is THE best way, but I don't think I'd recommend buying an electric
bike as a first, second, or third method of weight loss. Not to say that
these bikes and their kin don't have a place, mind you. For those who
commute and have heaving hills, or those that tour and want that assist
sometimes, or those that just need the help. Of course, I'm mixing in
adding electric assist with electric bikes, which is blurring the lines
here.