Re: Tour de France: No Women Ever? - Cycling Mob: Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and More

07-10-2003, 09:11 PM

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>, "GIGANews"
> <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
> > Beryl Burton in her prime arguably rode as an equal with most men in
> > her time trial categories, but that isn't the same as on the track or
> > in a mass start race. She also arguably was the greatest female
> > cyclist in history (a lot of Brits would strike the 'arguably').
> > The reason that you will not see a woman in the Tour de France in our
> > lifetime is that any woman at that athletic level could make a larger
> > fortune dominating a woman's sport with money than being a domestique
> > on the Tour. To pretend otherwise is to put political correctness
> > above reality.
> That's one way to put it. Another way is that the world has probably not
> yet seen a woman at the athletic level to compete in the TdF.
> This isn't meant as a knock on the numerous excellent female cyclists:
> the best of them might be able to trail along somewhere near the back
> of the pack for several stages, which is far more than most male
> cyclists could do. But the Tour's demands for huge endurance to survive
> the event, massive power to do well in the TTs, and more massive power
> combined with minimum weight to do well in the mountains does not
> favour women.
> Among male cyclists, the Tour only takes 200, and it's a fair bet that
> even the worst domestique on FDJeux is one of the 1000 best riders in
> the world, and probably more like top 300. All of the great GC riders in
> the world are at the tour (Cipo is good, but he's no GC rider, and I
> don't see giving a tour spot to a guy who has repeatedly ridden the tour
> only until it pointed uphill), and even so most of them don't have a
> hope of winning this event, and of the rest, 2 (Lance and your pick of
> the others) have a straight chance of victory, and probably 3 others
> will have a shot if the favourites falter.
> Venus and Serena Williams once made a foolhardy boast about being better
> than any tennis player outside of the top 200 men. A guy ranked about
> 211 in the world then went out and demolished them one after the other
> in a pair of exhibition sets. I think the final scores were about 6-1
> and 6-3 or so, and he flaunted the fact that he had taken a fairly
> relaxed approach to the event. This rule of thumb seems to hold in most
> sports: you can generally expect the best women to be about as good as
> the 200th-best men, better in finesse sports, worse in physical sports.
> --
> Ryan Cousineau, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] President,
> Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

Women compete in marathons, triathlons, duathlons, and ironman
distances... I suppose the Tour has just always been reserved as a man's
sporting event. If more women were to show interest, a women's version
of the Tour would be resurrected, I'm sure. If a woman were able to take
part in the 'tour, and not be left in the dust, would they disallow her
to take part in it?

--
You can't be good, unless you love it!

You can't be good, unless you love it!

>--------------------------<
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07-10-2003, 10:07 PM

One thing everyone is forgetting in all this is just how sexist
France, like most of Europe, is.

Downright un-American of them, dammit.

07-11-2003, 12:59 AM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].au>,
Seecyd <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> > Among male cyclists, the Tour only takes 200, and it's a fair bet that
> > even the worst domestique on FDJeux is one of the 1000 best riders in
> > the world, and probably more like top 300. All of the great GC riders in
> > the world are at the tour (Cipo is good, but he's no GC rider, and I
> > don't see giving a tour spot to a guy who has repeatedly ridden the tour
> > only until it pointed uphill), and even so most of them don't have a
> > hope of winning this event, and of the rest, 2 (Lance and your pick of
> > the others) have a straight chance of victory, and probably 3 others
> > will have a shot if the favourites falter.

> Women compete in marathons, triathlons, duathlons, and ironman
> distances... I suppose the Tour has just always been reserved as a man's
> sporting event. If more women were to show interest, a women's version
> of the Tour would be resurrected, I'm sure. If a woman were able to take
> part in the 'tour, and not be left in the dust, would they disallow her
> to take part in it?

Women compete in all these events, and they routinely are slower than
men. There is a Tour for women, the Tour de Feminin. If a woman was fast
enough to take part in the tour, they would probably allow it (I'm
pretty sure the rules don't specify the sex of riders), but I'm also
pretty sure that barring a Tammy Thomas-style sex change fiasco, there
will be no competitive women in the Tour in my lifetime. And I'm still
pretty young.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

07-11-2003, 05:16 AM

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:59:19 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:

> I'm also
>pretty sure that barring a Tammy Thomas-style sex change fiasco, there
>will be no competitive women in the Tour in my lifetime.

I prayed about this, and learned that it won't happen in God's
lifetime, either.

07-11-2003, 09:49 AM

"Zippy the Pinhead" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].gov> wrote in message
news:24aa4d5d7bff487467e187dcf188bcf5@free.teranew s.com...
> One thing everyone is forgetting in all this is just how sexist
> France, like most of Europe, is.
>

Yeah -- what's up with kissy kissy from the podium bimbos handing out the
jerseys? What do they think this is...NASCAR?

Mark

07-11-2003, 04:33 PM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] m>,
Zippy the Pinhead <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].gov> writes:
> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:59:19 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm also
>>pretty sure that barring a Tammy Thomas-style sex change fiasco, there
>>will be no competitive women in the Tour in my lifetime.
>
> I prayed about this, and learned that it won't happen in God's
> lifetime, either.

It might be closer than you think. Michelle Dumaresq:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

cheers,
Tom

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07-11-2003, 11:41 PM

In article <6ghneb.g8b2.ln@bud.garden.local>,
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (Tom Keats) wrote:

> In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] m>,
> Zippy the Pinhead <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].gov> writes:
> > On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:59:19 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I'm also
> >>pretty sure that barring a Tammy Thomas-style sex change fiasco, there
> >>will be no competitive women in the Tour in my lifetime.
> >
> > I prayed about this, and learned that it won't happen in God's
> > lifetime, either.
>
> It might be closer than you think. Michelle Dumaresq:
> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Aw crap. The problem with tranny pros is that it just isn't fair.
Michelle or Michael, s/he has a man's physique trapped in a transvestite
body. It's pretty unfair competition for all those women who started
life as women.

I think that at the International level Michelle is not welcome in the
women's races. You want to race, fine, go race in the men's race, just
don't go playing stupid games like being a pro-quality "female" racer.
It belies the whole purpose of a women's race.

The nightmare scenario is of course that day when transsexual "women"
are allowed universally, and start to routinely dominate women's racing.
What then, three classes of racing?

--
Ryan Cousineau, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

07-14-2003, 08:05 AM

> I don't know enough about rock climbing to compare its power
> requirements to cycling, but what I do know invites the idea that beyond
> the basic level of fitness required to do a rock climb, it is a sport
> much more about tactics and agility than raw strength.
>

Being light wieght doesn't hurt either.

> In road cycling, there really are no technically impossible courses for
> any rider. I could probably push myself up any climb in the Tour, given
> a triple, and with enough training, virtually everyone in this group
> probably has the inherent athleticism to ride the Tour route.
>
> The hard part is being competitive. Bike racing runs against the clock
> and the other riders, and virtually anyone in this group who managed to
> start the Tour would be dropped and time-barred after the first stage.
>
> The fierce levels of sustained aerobic exertion are what make elite
> cycling inaccessible to virtually any women. Lynn Hill probably is a
> great athlete, and I admire not only her achievements, but also
> disciplines that let men and women compete on largely equal footing. But
> road cycling is not one of those, and it is right and proper that there
> is an active women's racing circuit filled with many women who are very
> talented cyclists competing on their own terms.
>

The biggest barrier to anyone who wants to compete in the Tour is not
being invited.

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

07-14-2003, 09:38 PM

Ryan Cousineau <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
: and virtually anyone in this group who managed to
: start the Tour would be dropped and time-barred after the first stage.

fabrizio, ryan. it took 2 or 3.
--
david reuteler
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

07-15-2003, 08:11 AM

Hmm, transexuals would rather skew the game. What an interesting
consideration!

Wouldn't a transexual fail a steroid test? They must take quantities of
hormones to keep the sex change in place, no? And female hormones are steroids
just like male ones.

I suppose legislation and rules would have to evlove to keep up with these new
cases.

Elisa Roselli
Paris, France

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> IAw crap. The problem with tranny pros is that it just isn't fair.
> Michelle or Michael, s/he has a man's physique trapped in a transvestite
> body. It's pretty unfair competition for all those women who started
> life as women.
>
> I think that at the International level Michelle is not welcome in the
> women's races. You want to race, fine, go race in the men's race, just
> don't go playing stupid games like being a pro-quality "female" racer.
> It belies the whole purpose of a women's race.
>
> The nightmare scenario is of course that day when transsexual "women"
> are allowed universally, and start to routinely dominate women's racing.
> What then, three classes of racing?