Hast. Gen. almost comes true! - Cycling Mob: Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and More

10-04-2003, 03:14 PM

Great day in Missouri - temps in the high 60s low 70. On my way back
from my 21 mile ride. Four way stop - I stop and proceed straight
through the intersection. Car comes to stop sign on my right - I am
through the intersection. Young high school girl (could tell by the
sticker in window) and girl friend in car - barely stop at stop sign,
make right turn and miss me by a foot. I am yelling at the top of my
lungs at her as I see her make the turn going right toward me - "hey,
hey, hey". The giggle and speed away as the one in the drivers side
throws some litter back my way.

It is really weird how perceptive one is on the bike, because of a
constant, heightened sense of awareness.

Kerry "I wish my generalizations didn't come true" Nikolaisen

10-04-2003, 08:46 PM

I had an identical near miss, except it was a house frau in a Mercedes
turning at a 4-way stop during rush hour in Potomac, MD. From the complete
look of surprise on her face as I vented my anger, it was clear that never
saw me. I think 4-way stops are complicated for drivers: cars are entering
from all sides with each driver trying to decide when to move forward vs.
everyone else. In the meantime, drivers don't expect to see cyclists and so
we're simply not "seen." Clearly, crossing an intersection with a 4-way stop
is dangerous and cyclists must assume they're invisible and proceed
accordingly...
JAZ

"Kerry Nikolaisen" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:OCHfb.2182$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].pas.earthl ink.net...
> Great day in Missouri - temps in the high 60s low 70. On my way back
> from my 21 mile ride. Four way stop - I stop and proceed straight
> through the intersection. Car comes to stop sign on my right - I am
> through the intersection. Young high school girl (could tell by the
> sticker in window) and girl friend in car - barely stop at stop sign,
> make right turn and miss me by a foot. I am yelling at the top of my
> lungs at her as I see her make the turn going right toward me - "hey,
> hey, hey". The giggle and speed away as the one in the drivers side
> throws some litter back my way.
>
> It is really weird how perceptive one is on the bike, because of a
> constant, heightened sense of awareness.
>
> Kerry "I wish my generalizations didn't come true" Nikolaisen
>

10-04-2003, 10:30 PM

On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 23:46:46 -0400, "J. Zwiebel" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:

> Clearly, crossing an intersection with a 4-way stop
>is dangerous and cyclists must assume they're invisible and proceed
>accordingly...

One sound survival strategy is always to conduct yourself among motor
vehicles as though you were invisible to the driver.

Just because you're paranoid dosen't mean they aren't actually out to
get you.

10-04-2003, 11:18 PM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] m>,
Zippy the Pinhead <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].gov> writes:
> On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 23:46:46 -0400, "J. Zwiebel" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
> wrote:
>
>> Clearly, crossing an intersection with a 4-way stop
>>is dangerous and cyclists must assume they're invisible and proceed
>>accordingly...
>
> One sound survival strategy is always to conduct yourself among motor
> vehicles as though you were invisible to the driver.

But then, how does a cyclist effect a well lane-positioned left turn
from a 4-way stop? If you're invisible to the driver behind you,
[s]he'll run you over to get to the stop line. If you're invisible
to the oncoming straight-through driver, [s]he'll run you over as
you make your turn. And if you're invisible to the cross traffic,
they'll run you over as you ingress the intersection.

And if you're *acting* as if you're invisible, you're cowering in
the right-hand gutter, waiting for there to be no traffic at all
before proceeding. And the right-hand gutter is not a place from
which to hang a left. Might as well make a pedestrian box-turn.

So, I respectfully disagree. 4-ways are not a place to be (or act
as if) invisible. They're a place to be loud-&-proud. Let me
repeat that: they're a place to be loud-&-proud.

Furthermore, I've learnt to not signal my left turn intentions while
stopped at 4-ways. It just befuddles and empuzzles all the other
drivers. I just go as the oncomer goes, then signal, and make my turn
behind the oncomer. I still have my skin on. It works. Or has,
heretofore.

cheers, & a noble spirit embiggens the smallest man [Jebediah Springfield],
Tom
>

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10-05-2003, 12:14 AM

>So, I respectfully disagree.

I agree with your disagreement, the problems involved with purported
invisibility are too numerous to mention, seriously. I'd be glad to
talk about this in another thread but right now I'm too tired to
engage the issue, maybe we can do this another time.

The essential fact is that we are not invisible nor are we the sort
of superheroes who can become so on demand, we are ordinary people
riding bicycles.

The strategies we use to, yes, stay alive aren't rocket science.

But it isn't about invisibility. It's about taking charge of the
environment, mastering the challenge, and getting on down the
road.

It's a sport. It's about victory. If you don't get that aspect
of cycling then you just plain don't get cycling.

That's my opinion, and as I said I'm probably too tired to talk
about this right now.

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10-05-2003, 08:21 AM

Zippy the Pinhead <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].gov> wrote:

>One sound survival strategy is always to conduct yourself among motor
>vehicles as though you were invisible to the driver.

This is good advice for a motorcyclist, and one that I practiced all
the time when riding motorcycles. It doesn't work for cyclists, who
cannot keep up with motorized traffic in most circumstances.

We have to depend on drivers seeing us, which is why wearing
outstanding clothing, and using both lights and reflectors at night,
is a must.

10-05-2003, 09:57 AM

"J. Zwiebel" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message news:<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>...
> I had an identical near miss, except it was a house frau in a Mercedes
> turning at a 4-way stop during rush hour in Potomac, MD. From the complete
> look of surprise on her face as I vented my anger, it was clear that never
> saw me. I think 4-way stops are complicated for drivers: cars are entering
> from all sides with each driver trying to decide when to move forward vs.
> everyone else. In the meantime, drivers don't expect to see cyclists and so
> we're simply not "seen." Clearly, crossing an intersection with a 4-way stop
> is dangerous and cyclists must assume they're invisible and proceed
> accordingly...
> JAZ

4-way stops may be slightly complicated, but pretending invisibility
isn't the solution. I believe the cyclist should, instead, look and
act like a confident, legal road user who _will_ take his right of
way. Be there and be real!

I approach a 4-way stop by taking the lane. I don't want anyone
thinking they're going to come along side and drag-race me to get
past, and I definitely don't want anyone hitting me with a right hook.

I give everybody the eye as I'm approaching. Usually, there's little
doubt who has the ROW (based on arrival time). If it's me, I'll be
conspicuously looking at the other drivers as I take my turn. On a
few occasions, I've shaken my head at someone who looked like they
were going to try to cheat. Rarely, I've had to yell.

I try to avoid "You go... No, you go..." types of disputes. If the
motorists are not sure whether they should take their ROW - for
example, if arrival time is a tie, and they're on the right, and
unsure the crazy guy on a bike will stop - I wave them through as I'm
still approaching. I know the rules, I know I'll stop, and I don't
mind taking charge if all it means is reinforcing the laws.

OTOH, if the rules say I've got the ROW, I won't stop for more than a
fraction of a second. In particular, if traffic is backed up so
people really are having to take turns, I take my turn very quickly.
I'll usually start out before the previous car is even out of the way.

And BTW - if it's _not_ a 4-way, but a regular 2-way stop and I have
the ROW, I will not coast! Even if it's a downhill, I'll "soft pedal"
so they see that I am really coming through - that I have no intention
of relinquishing my ROW.

Don't be invisible. Be confident in the rules, and take control of
the situation. If you're good on a bike, you'll know more about what
to do than most drivers. Use the rules of the road to your advantage.

- Frank Krygowski

10-05-2003, 02:15 PM

I'm afraid my comment about cyclists being invisible to drivers was
misunderstood. I certainly agree that cyclists must do whatever they can to
be noticed, and I also get to the center of the lane at stop signs (I don't
"cower" in the gutter!) and try to establish eye contact with drivers. I
simply don't assume that I'm actually SEEN by drivers.

JAZ

"Frank Krygowski" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:927f127c.0310050857.28095df2@posting.google.c om...
> "J. Zwiebel" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>...
> > I had an identical near miss, except it was a house frau in a Mercedes
> > turning at a 4-way stop during rush hour in Potomac, MD. From the
complete
> > look of surprise on her face as I vented my anger, it was clear that
never
> > saw me. I think 4-way stops are complicated for drivers: cars are
entering
> > from all sides with each driver trying to decide when to move forward
vs.
> > everyone else. In the meantime, drivers don't expect to see cyclists and
so
> > we're simply not "seen." Clearly, crossing an intersection with a 4-way
stop
> > is dangerous and cyclists must assume they're invisible and proceed
> > accordingly...
> > JAZ
>
> 4-way stops may be slightly complicated, but pretending invisibility
> isn't the solution. I believe the cyclist should, instead, look and
> act like a confident, legal road user who _will_ take his right of
> way. Be there and be real!
>
> I approach a 4-way stop by taking the lane. I don't want anyone
> thinking they're going to come along side and drag-race me to get
> past, and I definitely don't want anyone hitting me with a right hook.
>
> I give everybody the eye as I'm approaching. Usually, there's little
> doubt who has the ROW (based on arrival time). If it's me, I'll be
> conspicuously looking at the other drivers as I take my turn. On a
> few occasions, I've shaken my head at someone who looked like they
> were going to try to cheat. Rarely, I've had to yell.
>
> I try to avoid "You go... No, you go..." types of disputes. If the
> motorists are not sure whether they should take their ROW - for
> example, if arrival time is a tie, and they're on the right, and
> unsure the crazy guy on a bike will stop - I wave them through as I'm
> still approaching. I know the rules, I know I'll stop, and I don't
> mind taking charge if all it means is reinforcing the laws.
>
> OTOH, if the rules say I've got the ROW, I won't stop for more than a
> fraction of a second. In particular, if traffic is backed up so
> people really are having to take turns, I take my turn very quickly.
> I'll usually start out before the previous car is even out of the way.
>
>
> And BTW - if it's _not_ a 4-way, but a regular 2-way stop and I have
> the ROW, I will not coast! Even if it's a downhill, I'll "soft pedal"
> so they see that I am really coming through - that I have no intention
> of relinquishing my ROW.
>
> Don't be invisible. Be confident in the rules, and take control of
> the situation. If you're good on a bike, you'll know more about what
> to do than most drivers. Use the rules of the road to your advantage.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

10-05-2003, 03:25 PM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
"J. Zwiebel" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> writes:
> I'm afraid my comment about cyclists being invisible to drivers was
> misunderstood. I certainly agree that cyclists must do whatever they can to
> be noticed, and I also get to the center of the lane at stop signs (I don't
> "cower" in the gutter!) and try to establish eye contact with drivers. I
> simply don't assume that I'm actually SEEN by drivers.

Fair enough.

But I figure 4-way stops actually compel all road users to assume
that they /are/ being seen, since 4-way rules require drivers and
riders to keep track of what's going on at the intersection. And
besides, 4-way stops are such relatively low-speed affairs, there's
plenty of opportunity to assess the situation, and even to make
not-so-panicy-as-ditch-diving evasive maneouvers if really necessary.
So due diligence falls upon us riders to ensure we are not only seen,
but seen to be going with the flow along with everybody else. I guess
I just have trouble getting my head around taking pains to enhance
visibility, predictability and communications with the other road
users, and then pretending it's all for nought.

I think it would be suicidal for a truly, non-hypothetically
invisible person to hang around in the midst of traffic. A real
invisible person with any sense would be watching Tuscan Sun or
some other new release for free, or repairing his/her credit
history. Anywhere that's not the middle of a street.

Maybe rephrasing "act as if invisible" to "not 100% expect drivers
will act predictably" would work? But still, we might as well
act as if all cars are runaway semi tractors with no brakes.

I think I still prefer to deal with what *is* (i.e: all the due
diligence I've taken care of myself), rather than imaginative
stretches of what might be. And if we assume we're not seen by
the drivers but we proceed normally anyway, what's the point of
all the pretending & guessing?

cheers,
Tom

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10-06-2003, 08:55 AM

Tom Keats wrote in part:

<< Maybe rephrasing "act as if invisible" to "not 100% expect drivers
will act predictably" would work? But still, we might as well
act as if all cars are runaway semi tractors with no brakes.

I think I still prefer to deal with what *is* (i.e: all the due
diligence I've taken care of myself), rather than imaginative
stretches of what might be. And if we assume we're not seen by
the drivers but we proceed normally anyway, what's the point of
all the pretending & guessing?

cheers,
Tom

-- >>

I see what Tom is saying but the point is to eliminate, as much as possible,
the guessing. To take control. this is interesting, because those in the "be
loud and proud" camp feel as if they are taking control, when in fact what they
are doing is repeatedly putting control into the hands of motorists. They
depend on the vision and awareness of others.

We must deal with reality, as Tom says. The reality is that, no matter what we
do, no matter how proud we feel, no matter what we wear, no matter what kind of
trailer we pull, no matter where we ride in the street, there are a number of
drivers who will simply not see us. This is the incurable nature of riding a
bike on the street. This is the reality that we must deal with.

<< Maybe rephrasing "act as if invisible" to "not 100% expect drivers
will act predictably" would work? But still, we might as well
act as if all cars are runaway semi tractors with no brakes. >>

Expect the worst from every vehicle, I say, based on its physical potential to
move into a given space, not based on cultural norms, traffic laws, or common
sense. Tstreet, I was only momentarily surprised. This move was, essentially,
normal for city traffic.

It's a matter of expectations and attitude. The "loud and prouders" usually
don't realize that more cynical riders are sharing the same road position,
making "vehicular" style left turns, etc. They think the "invisible" cyclists
are all cowering in the gutter, afraid of the traffic flow. But the gutter is
usually a bad place to be invisible.

The invisible cyclist is out in the street, too, but with a fundamentally
different attitude and set of expectations. The invisible cyclist expects that
car to pull out in front of him/her, and will be ready for it. A lot of the
"proud" cyclists seem to be rather innocent. The only way someone could figure
that bcoming visible to drivers is the most important thing is if they have
never been run down by someone who appears to be looking right at them. When
that happens, as it eventually does, they will have to reevaluate their whole
mindset.

Robert
keeping rookies out of the ER since '91