Ti vs. Carbon Fiber - Cycling Mob: Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and More

02-27-2005, 07:45 PM

I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
bike. I have an aluminum bike now, and want get something pretty nice.
Any thoughts on titainium vs. carbon fiber. Any input would be
appreciated...thanks

02-27-2005, 08:26 PM

"Edward" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in news:1109565938.714800.24070
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> bike. I have an aluminum bike now, and want get something pretty nice.
> Any thoughts on titainium vs. carbon fiber. Any input would be
> appreciated...thanks

Some carbon bikes are very stiff; others are flexy. Same goes for titanium.
Even with the same brand and model, different sizes will ride differently.
You can make a very strong bike from either material if you use it wisely; or
a fragile bike if you are not so wise.

02-27-2005, 08:26 PM

"Edward" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in news:1109565938.714800.24070
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> bike. I have an aluminum bike now, and want get something pretty nice.
> Any thoughts on titainium vs. carbon fiber. Any input would be
> appreciated...thanks

Some carbon bikes are very stiff; others are flexy. Same goes for titanium.
Even with the same brand and model, different sizes will ride differently.
You can make a very strong bike from either material if you use it wisely; or
a fragile bike if you are not so wise.

02-27-2005, 08:28 PM

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0800, Edward wrote:

> I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> bike. I have an aluminum bike now, and want get something pretty nice.
> Any thoughts on titainium vs. carbon fiber. Any input would be
> appreciated...thanks

Both can be made into excellent frames. I would give the advantage in
durability to titanium. It is real hard to scratch, and (if brushed) easy
to fix any scratches. Should look like new for many years, and last
longer than you will. Never needs paint. Carbon is somewhat fragile; for
example, people worry about clamping a carbon bike in a repair stand, and
damage after a crash can occur with no visible sign. (The same is true of
carbon forks, but they are cheaper than frames, so less of a problem to
replace.)

On the other hand, carbon can be quite a bit lighter. A sub-3 lb titanium
frame is hard to find and very expensive, any decent carbon frame will be
sub-3 lb. unless you are 6'5" tall.

Either material, especially carbon, is tricky to work with and needs care
to make into a reliable frame. Both can be pricey, with high-zoot
titanium frames being sold at almost any imaginable price. The difference
between very expensive and less expensive titanium frames is probably less
than the difference between carbon frames at the same prices. I would not
want to buy a cheap carbon frame, and I own an inexpensive titanium frame.

You will hear lots of BS about how titanium is "lively" or how
carbon dampens out "road buzz", and conversely how carbon is "dead" or
titanium is not stiff enough. Take all of that with a hefty dose of salt.

I decided to get a titanium frame under similar circumstances. I got mine
from Mark Hickey, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] , and am very happy with it. It is
not the lightest, but is well-made and at $695 is possibly the best
bargain out there. You pay a lot to lose a few grams with other brands.
But many of the people I ride with have Trek carbon bikes and are very
happy with those, too.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems.
_`\(,_ | -- Paul Erdos
(_)/ (_) |

02-27-2005, 08:28 PM

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0800, Edward wrote:

> I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> bike. I have an aluminum bike now, and want get something pretty nice.
> Any thoughts on titainium vs. carbon fiber. Any input would be
> appreciated...thanks

Both can be made into excellent frames. I would give the advantage in
durability to titanium. It is real hard to scratch, and (if brushed) easy
to fix any scratches. Should look like new for many years, and last
longer than you will. Never needs paint. Carbon is somewhat fragile; for
example, people worry about clamping a carbon bike in a repair stand, and
damage after a crash can occur with no visible sign. (The same is true of
carbon forks, but they are cheaper than frames, so less of a problem to
replace.)

On the other hand, carbon can be quite a bit lighter. A sub-3 lb titanium
frame is hard to find and very expensive, any decent carbon frame will be
sub-3 lb. unless you are 6'5" tall.

Either material, especially carbon, is tricky to work with and needs care
to make into a reliable frame. Both can be pricey, with high-zoot
titanium frames being sold at almost any imaginable price. The difference
between very expensive and less expensive titanium frames is probably less
than the difference between carbon frames at the same prices. I would not
want to buy a cheap carbon frame, and I own an inexpensive titanium frame.

You will hear lots of BS about how titanium is "lively" or how
carbon dampens out "road buzz", and conversely how carbon is "dead" or
titanium is not stiff enough. Take all of that with a hefty dose of salt.

I decided to get a titanium frame under similar circumstances. I got mine
from Mark Hickey, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] , and am very happy with it. It is
not the lightest, but is well-made and at $695 is possibly the best
bargain out there. You pay a lot to lose a few grams with other brands.
But many of the people I ride with have Trek carbon bikes and are very
happy with those, too.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems.
_`\(,_ | -- Paul Erdos
(_)/ (_) |

02-27-2005, 09:19 PM

>I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> bike. I have an aluminum bike now, and want get something pretty nice.
> Any thoughts on titainium vs. carbon fiber. Any input would be
> appreciated...thanks

The best bike is the one that makes you want to ride it every time you see
it. Best bet is to find a shop that has samples of each that you can ride,
in the right size and set up similarly, and see what you think. I'm partial
to Trek carbon fiber, but since I make a living selling them (huge numbers
of them at that), you should consider me totally biased and an entirely
unreliable source of information. :>)

Nevertheless, I've written an article on our website that's entirely brand &
material neutral, designed to help people evaluate different bikes they're
looking at. You can find it at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

02-27-2005, 09:19 PM

>I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> bike. I have an aluminum bike now, and want get something pretty nice.
> Any thoughts on titainium vs. carbon fiber. Any input would be
> appreciated...thanks

The best bike is the one that makes you want to ride it every time you see
it. Best bet is to find a shop that has samples of each that you can ride,
in the right size and set up similarly, and see what you think. I'm partial
to Trek carbon fiber, but since I make a living selling them (huge numbers
of them at that), you should consider me totally biased and an entirely
unreliable source of information. :>)

Nevertheless, I've written an article on our website that's entirely brand &
material neutral, designed to help people evaluate different bikes they're
looking at. You can find it at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

02-28-2005, 02:35 AM

"Edward" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1109565938.714800.24070@z14g2000cwz.googlegro ups.com...
> I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> bike. I have an aluminum bike now, and want get something pretty nice.
> Any thoughts on titainium vs. carbon fiber. Any input would be
> appreciated...thanks

Well, if you want something that will last for years and years, your choice
should be between titanium and steel. :-) I would point you toward custom
lugged steel, but that's just me. If you're not racing, and you're not a
weight weenie, steel will serve you well for the next 40 years. Nobody quite
knows how the ultralight carbon fiber frames are going to hold up. Having
seen a Spinergy carbon wheel disintegrate, and carbon bars/forks
catastropically fail, I would tend to avoid it. I know carbon's a sturdy
material, but...

02-28-2005, 02:35 AM

"Edward" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1109565938.714800.24070@z14g2000cwz.googlegro ups.com...
> I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> bike. I have an aluminum bike now, and want get something pretty nice.
> Any thoughts on titainium vs. carbon fiber. Any input would be
> appreciated...thanks

Well, if you want something that will last for years and years, your choice
should be between titanium and steel. :-) I would point you toward custom
lugged steel, but that's just me. If you're not racing, and you're not a
weight weenie, steel will serve you well for the next 40 years. Nobody quite
knows how the ultralight carbon fiber frames are going to hold up. Having
seen a Spinergy carbon wheel disintegrate, and carbon bars/forks
catastropically fail, I would tend to avoid it. I know carbon's a sturdy
material, but...

02-28-2005, 03:21 AM

Your LAST bike? Hah! Anyone contemplating Carbon or Ti is someone
with at least a mild bike addiction! It won't be your last bike. I
bought an Independent Fab Crown Jewel Ti.... and two months later I HAD
to have a Bianchi Pista. Then, I saw a lovely hand-made steel touring
frame that I had to have.... the stable grows and occasionally you sell
one off... but bull**** your wife, not us.

Ok... so... now that we admit that we have a problem, we can go
forward.

I have to echo Goose somewhat. Why is the choice between Carbon and
Ti? If you're looking for a great quality bike, steel is definitely
not to be ruled out. I've owned carbon, steel, ti, and aluminum, and
I've liked the ride of the steel bikes the best. I still kick myself
for selling my Waterford back in grad school. Today, I've got a
bianchi steel bike, a Gios, and an Independent Fab Ti Crown Jewel. The
IF is fantastic... and will last forever.... but the 10 year old
bianchi eros rides just as nice.

The ride difference is this - the IF seems to flex a lot - but never in
the wrong direction. I can hammer the pedals without tourqing the rear
triangle - which happened on a waterford RS-11. My waterford made from
853 steel never did that. The Gios Lite is a pretty inexpensive steel
frame, but rides wonderfully.

I'm not a fan of carbon. I don't like the ride quality of what I have
sampled. I personally don't even like the carbon fork on my IF. I
really preferred the steel fork on my Waterford (oh I miss her) and the
steel fork on my Gios. Yes, the carbon is more damping of vibration
and almost acts as a suspension fork - but I prefer steel.

Are you looking at carbon and Ti from a weight perspective? My
philosophy is this - if you are concerned about weight, go get a
body-fat measurment taken. If you're a guy who is over 12% body fat,
then you have no excuse for buying a bike based on weight.

If you're looking at your *last* bike, or if you can even say that
knowing that it isn't true... then I presume that nobody is sponsoring
you. Meaning again, weight should not be a concern at all. An extra
two pounds on your bike can be lost by spending an extra two thousand
dollars, or it can be lost from your gut by riding harder.
Conventional Wisdom, for what it's worth, is that it costs $1000 to
take a pound off of a bike. So, given that I have at least ten pounds
of extra flab on my body that I could stand to lose, I've got ten grand
worth of exercising to do before I start caring about weight. (This is
not meant to slam you nor anyone else - just to help put the weight
consideration in some perspective).

Now... if weight is off the table... lets look at durability. Ti will
last beyond the extinction of mankind. You'll never see rust on ti.
Steel, if cared for, will last longer than you will live. Both can
take an impact, be repaired, and give a great ride.

Carbon -- there are great comments above about the sketchiness of
carbon. I dont know how long a carbon frame will last.

A consideration that might seem shallow, but I think is totally
legitimate is the "bike porn" value of whatever decision you make.
Part of what I love about cycling is the beauty of the machine. I dont
think there is anything wrong with lusting after Ti, a sweet steel
frame, or even carbon. Hey, there is nothing wrong with riding OCLV
"because it is what Lance rides." Don't be a fashion slave... but for
bike porn value, I'd say that it is a toss-up.

Now... think about this too. You say this is your "last bike."
(snicker.... snort... laugh). If so, you want it to fit perfectly -
don't you? There are some carbon manufacturers who will build you a
custom frame. Jack Kane comes to mind. There are a LOT of ti and
steel manufacturers who will do the same thing. Spend some money and
get a custom frame.

Bottom line... if it were me and I could have one last bike for the
rest of my life, I would check out Independent Fab's ti or steel, or
Waterford's steel, and get them custom-built.

Have fun on your "last bike!" (just one last beer... just one last bet
at the track.... at least your addiction is a healthy one!)