you have to be kidding - Page 11

03-04-2005, 12:26 AM

From: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (Mary) comes this observation:

><snip>He also said that many of the
>parts on the bike have become obsolete
>and that in 6 months it will be hard to
>find parts for the bike. / I thought this
>was the last bike I would have to buy.
>Didn't bikes use to last like
>forever?</snip>

Welcome to 21st century bicycling, Mary :-3(

- -

"May you have the winds at your back,
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

03-04-2005, 04:53 AM

RonSonic wrote:
>
> Now imagine if you had no clue whatsoever - what would someone have
to do to
> ensure you were safe, happy, rolling smooth and never ever stranded?
What level
> of care and maintenance does that take. A hell of a lot more than you
or I are
> going to do because we are a different customer than that.

>
> Now, as to how are you going to spend $200 on a bike. It's called
labor and it
> has to be paid for or you don't get any, or you get the ****ty
indifferent kind.
> What is your time worth? What is the time of someone you want working
on your
> bike worth? Wear and tear on tools? Overhead?
>
> Let's follow this up a little further. You say parts should only be
replaced at
> need and bearings repacked if contaminated and so on. How much time,
and this is
> an actual question since I'm not a pro bike mechanic like some of our
guys here,
> does it take to inspect everything and confirm that none of that
needs done.
> Next question - how much do you charge for that inspection. How much
work could
> you have done in the time it took to inspect? How much time to see
that the
> bearing's grease is uncontaminated compared to repacking and
replacing bearings?
>
> What would you have to charge?

As far as "safety" and being "stranded", I think you are introducing
the bogeyman. What kind of things can a bike shop do to prevent these?
A normal bike inspection will check the brakes (pad wear/alignment, rim
wear, etc.), wiggle the handlebars for loose stem and/or headset, check
the wheels for true. Drivetrain parts (chain, sprockets, rings) need to
be checked for wear, but that's trivial, and not a "safety" issue.
Wheel, headset and BB bearings can be felt for roughness and repacked
as necessary. Many newer bearings are cartridge, so there's no
serviceability, just toss when they're shot. Bearings also typically
won't "strand" you or raise safety issues. Since BB bearings can't be
felt without pulling the cranks, I wait until I have to pull the cranks
for something else, or until they develop some play. I would regrease
seatposts and quill stems and tweak shifting and brake pull if needed.

An inspection like that should take a half hour.

03-04-2005, 04:53 AM

RonSonic wrote:
>
> Now imagine if you had no clue whatsoever - what would someone have
to do to
> ensure you were safe, happy, rolling smooth and never ever stranded?
What level
> of care and maintenance does that take. A hell of a lot more than you
or I are
> going to do because we are a different customer than that.

>
> Now, as to how are you going to spend $200 on a bike. It's called
labor and it
> has to be paid for or you don't get any, or you get the ****ty
indifferent kind.
> What is your time worth? What is the time of someone you want working
on your
> bike worth? Wear and tear on tools? Overhead?
>
> Let's follow this up a little further. You say parts should only be
replaced at
> need and bearings repacked if contaminated and so on. How much time,
and this is
> an actual question since I'm not a pro bike mechanic like some of our
guys here,
> does it take to inspect everything and confirm that none of that
needs done.
> Next question - how much do you charge for that inspection. How much
work could
> you have done in the time it took to inspect? How much time to see
that the
> bearing's grease is uncontaminated compared to repacking and
replacing bearings?
>
> What would you have to charge?

As far as "safety" and being "stranded", I think you are introducing
the bogeyman. What kind of things can a bike shop do to prevent these?
A normal bike inspection will check the brakes (pad wear/alignment, rim
wear, etc.), wiggle the handlebars for loose stem and/or headset, check
the wheels for true. Drivetrain parts (chain, sprockets, rings) need to
be checked for wear, but that's trivial, and not a "safety" issue.
Wheel, headset and BB bearings can be felt for roughness and repacked
as necessary. Many newer bearings are cartridge, so there's no
serviceability, just toss when they're shot. Bearings also typically
won't "strand" you or raise safety issues. Since BB bearings can't be
felt without pulling the cranks, I wait until I have to pull the cranks
for something else, or until they develop some play. I would regrease
seatposts and quill stems and tweak shifting and brake pull if needed.

An inspection like that should take a half hour.

03-04-2005, 08:30 AM

On 3 Mar 2005 12:08:03 -0800, "Peter Cole" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:

>Mary wrote:
>
>>
>> I spoke with the manager today. He said the guy I spoke with didn't
>know
>> what he was talking about and the total bill will be $160 or there
>abouts.
>> He had a second machanic (the one I really trust) go over the bike
>and they
>> found that the chain, chainring and cassette needed to be replaced.
>> Bearings fine etc. They have to order the cassette but otherwise no
>> problem.
>
>$160 is still a really healthy price (for the LBS). For calibration
>sake, I'd replace that stuff with mail-order components for about $50
>and less than an hour's work. My point isn't that everyone should do
>that, or that bike shops are overpriced, but routine maintenance should
>be reasonably priced relative to the bike. The average bike/customer
>doesn't need high-zoot parts or craftsman-artisan wrenching to swap out
>chain/cassette/rings. $160 is the high side of reasonable, $300 was
>nuts.

But not everyone knows what they need to know to procure the correct,
or compatible parts. Nor does everyone have the correct tools, or the
knowledge of their use to do the work. Nor does everyone know which
pedal, or bottom bracket cup has the left-hand thread.

The LBS has all of these, in a place that is accessible, which
incidentally, has to be paid for, as well.

The suggestion that Mary buy a new bike by reason of the obsolescence
of her current bike's components seems to have been misguided. But
even at that, if the group was very low-end and wasn't working
properly for her, and she is "coming into her own" as a rider with
ever increasing goals and objectives in her riding, then maybe it was
not so very misguided.

I am very cynical of much I see and experience in the retail business
world today. None of this cynicism has grown out of any experiences
with bike shops.

Cal

03-04-2005, 08:30 AM

On 3 Mar 2005 12:08:03 -0800, "Peter Cole" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:

>Mary wrote:
>
>>
>> I spoke with the manager today. He said the guy I spoke with didn't
>know
>> what he was talking about and the total bill will be $160 or there
>abouts.
>> He had a second machanic (the one I really trust) go over the bike
>and they
>> found that the chain, chainring and cassette needed to be replaced.
>> Bearings fine etc. They have to order the cassette but otherwise no
>> problem.
>
>$160 is still a really healthy price (for the LBS). For calibration
>sake, I'd replace that stuff with mail-order components for about $50
>and less than an hour's work. My point isn't that everyone should do
>that, or that bike shops are overpriced, but routine maintenance should
>be reasonably priced relative to the bike. The average bike/customer
>doesn't need high-zoot parts or craftsman-artisan wrenching to swap out
>chain/cassette/rings. $160 is the high side of reasonable, $300 was
>nuts.

But not everyone knows what they need to know to procure the correct,
or compatible parts. Nor does everyone have the correct tools, or the
knowledge of their use to do the work. Nor does everyone know which
pedal, or bottom bracket cup has the left-hand thread.

The LBS has all of these, in a place that is accessible, which
incidentally, has to be paid for, as well.

The suggestion that Mary buy a new bike by reason of the obsolescence
of her current bike's components seems to have been misguided. But
even at that, if the group was very low-end and wasn't working
properly for her, and she is "coming into her own" as a rider with
ever increasing goals and objectives in her riding, then maybe it was
not so very misguided.

I am very cynical of much I see and experience in the retail business
world today. None of this cynicism has grown out of any experiences
with bike shops.

Cal

03-04-2005, 11:12 AM

cal wrote:

> But not everyone knows what they need to know to procure the correct,
> or compatible parts. Nor does everyone have the correct tools, or
the
> knowledge of their use to do the work. Nor does everyone know which
> pedal, or bottom bracket cup has the left-hand thread.
>
> The LBS has all of these, in a place that is accessible, which
> incidentally, has to be paid for, as well.

Yes, that's why you pay a premium for LBS service. When you're paying
that premium however, you're paying for peace of mind -- that the job
is necessary, is done well, and any maintenace issues that may ruin
your day will be checked.

The question is how much of a premium is that worth. For a mid-range
bike used by a recreational rider like the OP, a chain, chainring &
cassette swap for $160 is pushing the limit of reasonability, $300 is
in the realm of the absurd.

> The suggestion that Mary buy a new bike by reason of the obsolescence
> of her current bike's components seems to have been misguided. But
> even at that, if the group was very low-end and wasn't working
> properly for her, and she is "coming into her own" as a rider with
> ever increasing goals and objectives in her riding, then maybe it was
> not so very misguided.

Why are you making up so many specious qualifications? The guy was out
to lunch. A shop that charges $160 for a drivetrain tuneup should be
holding a customer's hand, not terrorizing her. The guy was spewing
crap, even the other LBS people admitted that. A mid-range bike, used a
typical amount, shouldn't be so costly to maintain that it's better off
discarded every few years.

> I am very cynical of much I see and experience in the retail business
> world today. None of this cynicism has grown out of any experiences
> with bike shops.

When I first started biking I had a LBS do all of my work. It was a
fair deal, because, while I paid a premium, the premium was for
service, and the service was excellent. The service included being sold
the right part and having it installed the right way. As I became more
familiar with bicycle mechanics, it became more convenient for me to do
my own work. When I consider buying something from a LBS or having work
done there, I factor the premium that I know I'll pay, if it makes
sense, they get the business.

03-04-2005, 11:12 AM

cal wrote:

> But not everyone knows what they need to know to procure the correct,
> or compatible parts. Nor does everyone have the correct tools, or
the
> knowledge of their use to do the work. Nor does everyone know which
> pedal, or bottom bracket cup has the left-hand thread.
>
> The LBS has all of these, in a place that is accessible, which
> incidentally, has to be paid for, as well.

Yes, that's why you pay a premium for LBS service. When you're paying
that premium however, you're paying for peace of mind -- that the job
is necessary, is done well, and any maintenace issues that may ruin
your day will be checked.

The question is how much of a premium is that worth. For a mid-range
bike used by a recreational rider like the OP, a chain, chainring &
cassette swap for $160 is pushing the limit of reasonability, $300 is
in the realm of the absurd.

> The suggestion that Mary buy a new bike by reason of the obsolescence
> of her current bike's components seems to have been misguided. But
> even at that, if the group was very low-end and wasn't working
> properly for her, and she is "coming into her own" as a rider with
> ever increasing goals and objectives in her riding, then maybe it was
> not so very misguided.

Why are you making up so many specious qualifications? The guy was out
to lunch. A shop that charges $160 for a drivetrain tuneup should be
holding a customer's hand, not terrorizing her. The guy was spewing
crap, even the other LBS people admitted that. A mid-range bike, used a
typical amount, shouldn't be so costly to maintain that it's better off
discarded every few years.

> I am very cynical of much I see and experience in the retail business
> world today. None of this cynicism has grown out of any experiences
> with bike shops.

When I first started biking I had a LBS do all of my work. It was a
fair deal, because, while I paid a premium, the premium was for
service, and the service was excellent. The service included being sold
the right part and having it installed the right way. As I became more
familiar with bicycle mechanics, it became more convenient for me to do
my own work. When I consider buying something from a LBS or having work
done there, I factor the premium that I know I'll pay, if it makes
sense, they get the business.

03-04-2005, 06:18 PM

"Peter Cole" wrote: (clip) A mid-range bike, used a typical amount,
shouldn't be so costly to maintain that it's better off discarded every few
years. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
PARTICULARLY, if it has been regularly maintained by the very LBS that sold
it originally.

03-04-2005, 06:18 PM

"Peter Cole" wrote: (clip) A mid-range bike, used a typical amount,
shouldn't be so costly to maintain that it's better off discarded every few
years. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
PARTICULARLY, if it has been regularly maintained by the very LBS that sold
it originally.