Velodrome - Page 2

12-25-2006, 04:23 AM

<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

>I won't go into great detail regarding why one of my friends has come
>up with the idea that what Haikou really needs is a velodrome.

Here are pages on the one in NYC:

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Don <www.donwiss.com/joyrides> (e-mail link at page bottom).

12-25-2006, 05:06 AM

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] wrote:
> There is nothing I like more than when someone who has been involved in
> cycling longer than I have been alive turns to me in front of a crowd
> of people and asks if his English pronunciation of a technical French
> term is correct.
>
> It's one thing when someone who doesn't know me very well and hasn't
> known me for very long does something like that. It's quite another
> when someone who remembers when I thought my lone 800 rmb bike was
> expensive asks me a highly technical question regarding how things are
> done with regards to bikes, bike shops, bikes as a sport, or racing in
> other countries.
>
> I won't go into great detail regarding why one of my friends has come
> up with the idea that what Haikou really needs is a velodrome. For
> starters, even knowing all the people involved, and knowing all the
> background involved, it's just way too complicated. Lets just say that
> it isn't quite as harebrained as it sounds at first gasp.
>
> The harebrained part of it was asking me how much I think it should
> cost to build a simple velodrome. Just a guesstimate. Based on my
> knowledge of how much something like that might cost in the US.
> Notwithstanding the fact that I've never even _seen_ a velodrome let
> alone ridden in one and have no connections with the construction
> business in any country, my friend thought it was perfectly reasonable
> to ask me this question.
>
> I'll cut him a bit of slack since this particular person was introduced
> to me by way of the Tour de Hainan. And, so far as I know, he wasn't
> actually present on any of the occasions where I had to ask one of the
> comissaires the correct word in English cycling jargon since, if I knew
> it at all, I only knew it in Chinese.
>
> But, hey, I've got the internet... and the internet has the
> rec.bicycles hierarchy of newsgroups which is an amazing resource for
> finding out obscure bits of information that may or may not be
> tangentially related to cycling.
>
> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?

Two locals here did the math and a simple, concrete, 250 meter, into
the ground velodrome is about $500,000.
>
> I'm pretty sure the best guesstimate my friend currently has is one
> that has a few too many zeroes and comes from his making the mistake of
> asking someone on the Olympic Committee. That sort of person is not
> only likely to have a wildly different conception of 'simple' they are
> also likely to figure in the cost of buying land in one of the most
> expensive cities in the world.
>
> -M

12-25-2006, 06:30 AM

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] wrote:
> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] wrote:
> > Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> > simple velodrome?
>
> Some time ago I was sitting at an airport with my laptop, real bored
> and not wanting to do any work, so I started wondering if I could build
> a velodrome on my land. First I Googled info on velodromes, then on
> concrete. Below is the complete text of what I wrote. My $20K
> estimate is likely very low.
>
> Tom
>
> ********* Beginning of Toms Velodrome.txt ********************
>
> The San Diego Velodrome is 333.33 meters. That length is figured from
> a line around the velodrome 20 cm above the base of the track.
>
> Another standard size is 250 meters. There seem to be a lot of them
> in the world. The smallest is 125 meters (8 laps per km).
>
> A 250 meter velodrome will have 43 degree slope on the ends and 13
> degree on ths straights. A 125 meter velodrome will have 50 degree
> slopes on the ends.
>
> I couldn't find any info on the aspect ratio but I did find a 250
> meter velodrome that was 115 m x 55 m external and 100 m x 40 m on
> the infield. That means the track is 7.5 meters wide.
>
> The velodrome external dimensions are then 125.7 yards (377 feet) by
> 60.15 yards (180.5 feet). Half that size for a 125 meter velodrome.
>
> By simple trig the hole in the ground to create a velodrome with a
> 50% banked end would be 6.28 meters (6.87 yards, 20.6 feet). Wow!
>
> To determine how much concrete this would be I have to calculate the
> area of a 250 meter velodrome track. The area of the straights is
> easy.
> Each straight is 60 m long (115 m - 55 m) and 7.5 m wide. And there
> are two of them. So 2 x 60 m x 7.5 m = 900 m^2 (1076.4 yds^2).
>
> The ends can be considered two concentric circles. The outer one has
> a radius of 55 m and the inner has a 40 m radius. The desired area
> is the area of the outer circle minus the area of the inner circle.
> So (pi x 27.5^2) - (pi x 20^2) = 1119.2 m^2 (1338.5 yrd^2).
>
> So the total is 2019.2 m^2 (2414.94 yrd^2). The actual surface area
> is larger than that because this calculation doesn't consider the
> banks.
>
> I've seen estimates of concrete driveways at $10/yrd^2. That would
> make
> the 250 meter velodrome cost $20K. A velodrome wouldn't have to
> withstand
> the weight of autos but it would have to be built with a sharp slope
> and
> built solid enough to avoid cracks.
>
> ********* End of Toms Velodrome.txt ********************

You left out a critical detail in your analysis: it requires special
expertise (and perhaps special materials) to pour concrete smoothly on
a steep slope, and I'm not even sure it can be done if the banking is
43 degrees. That's why few, if any, tracks that are less than 333.3 m
around are made of concrete.

Depending on where you live, my guess is that land may be less
expensive than materials and special skills...in which case a large,
asphalt track with only modest banking may be the cheapest route to go.

Andy Coggan

12-25-2006, 08:57 AM

> You left out a critical detail in your analysis: it requires special
> expertise (and perhaps special materials) to pour concrete smoothly on
> a steep slope, and I'm not even sure it can be done if the banking is
> 43 degrees. That's why few, if any, tracks that are less than 333.3 m
> around are made of concrete.
>

Unless it's precast concrete panels.

12-25-2006, 11:36 AM

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] wrote:
>
> Anyone have a ballpark figure idea of how much it costs to build a
> simple velodrome?
>
I don't, but the Northbrook (Illinois, USA) Velodrome was reconstructed a
couple of years ago. They should have some reconstruction figures handy.
Can't hurt to ask.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

12-25-2006, 01:00 PM

"CowPunk" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1167069433.438566.203540@79g2000cws.googlegro ups.com...
>> You left out a critical detail in your analysis: it requires special
>> expertise (and perhaps special materials) to pour concrete smoothly on
>> a steep slope, and I'm not even sure it can be done if the banking is
>> 43 degrees. That's why few, if any, tracks that are less than 333.3 m
>> around are made of concrete.
>>
>
> Unless it's precast concrete panels.
>

Hmm. might be difficult to find precast concrete panels for the bends, given
the needed trapezoidal shapes.

Actually, there are more sub 333.33 concrete tracks than you think. Sandy
Sutherland's book "No Brakes!" lists 37 out of 122 tracks in France as being
concrete and less than 333.3, although the book does not say if the tracks
are still operational or even in operating shape. (as a comparison, the book
lists Brown Deer in WI, a track in St Louis, Shakopee in MN, Dorais in
Detroit, and an old, portable board track that was built in the 70's that
was stolen [1] in the book, although it denotes St Louis and Dorais as
unrideable and Shakopee and the portable track as destroyed).

I've ridden on two 250 concrete tracks in South America that were
constructed in the 90's: the Mar de Plata track in Argentina that was used
for the '95 Pan Am games. It was a very nice track. The other 250 track was
in Baranquilla, Colombia. It was brand new in '92 when I rode it and it was
horribly bumpy.

[1] This was a portable track that was used for an attempt at a revival of
the six days in the US. It was stored in several semi trailers that were
stolen.

12-25-2006, 04:15 PM

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:00:13 -0600, "Carl Sundquist" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:

[snip]

>[1] This was a portable track that was used for an attempt at a revival of
>the six days in the US. It was stored in several semi trailers that were
>stolen.

Dear Carl,

Paging Mr. John A. Dortmunder . . .

Message for Mr. John Dortmunder from Mr. Donald Westlake . . .

Please meet Mr. Westlake and Mr. Sundquist at the O.J. Bar & Grill on
Amsterdam Avenue . . .

If your schedule will not allow this, please contact Mr. Hammett at
#28 at the address below:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

12-25-2006, 05:03 PM

<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]...
> On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:00:13 -0600, "Carl Sundquist" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>[1] This was a portable track that was used for an attempt at a revival of
>>the six days in the US. It was stored in several semi trailers that were
>>stolen.
>
> Dear Carl,
>
> Paging Mr. John A. Dortmunder . . .
>
> Message for Mr. John Dortmunder from Mr. Donald Westlake . . .
>
> Please meet Mr. Westlake and Mr. Sundquist at the O.J. Bar & Grill on
> Amsterdam Avenue . . .
>
> If your schedule will not allow this, please contact Mr. Hammett at
> #28 at the address below:
>
> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

I wasn't there. Please tell us what really happened.

12-25-2006, 05:51 PM

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 20:03:00 -0600, "Carl Sundquist" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:

>
><[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
>news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].. .
>> On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:00:13 -0600, "Carl Sundquist" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>[1] This was a portable track that was used for an attempt at a revival of
>>>the six days in the US. It was stored in several semi trailers that were
>>>stolen.
>>
>> Dear Carl,
>>
>> Paging Mr. John A. Dortmunder . . .
>>
>> Message for Mr. John Dortmunder from Mr. Donald Westlake . . .
>>
>> Please meet Mr. Westlake and Mr. Sundquist at the O.J. Bar & Grill on
>> Amsterdam Avenue . . .
>>
>> If your schedule will not allow this, please contact Mr. Hammett at
>> #28 at the address below:
>>
>> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>I wasn't there. Please tell us what really happened.

Dear Carl,

Me neither.

I wasn't incredulous, just vastly amused that someone pulled a
Dortmunder-style heist of a bicycle race-track--which isn't quite as
improbable as it sounds, given Hammett's real-life ferris-wheel thief.

Possibly the bicycle race-track ended up in this Simpson's episode,
where Homer, disguised as Krusty, is about to be executed by Don
Vittorio DiMaggio unless Homer disguised as Krusty can entertain him
in a very specific way:

Vittorio: Sorry I have to do this, Krusty. [pulls a gun] [points it at
Homer, ****s trigger] I cannot do it. To murder a funny man of such
genius would be a crime. Ah, tell you what, Krusty: do for me my
favorite trick where you ride the little bike for me through the loop,
and I will let you live.

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It's suspicious that Don Vittorio DiMaggio just happens to have a
loop-the-loop bicycle track handy for Homer and Krusty to ride through
on their miniature bicycles. Where did this self-described "old
Italian stereotype" get his personal velodrome? Could it have fallen
off the back of the stolen trucks?

Paging Mr. Matt Groening, message for Mr. Matt Groening . . .

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

12-26-2006, 05:02 AM

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 08:23:21 -0500, Don Wiss <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:

><[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>
>>I won't go into great detail regarding why one of my friends has come
>>up with the idea that what Haikou really needs is a velodrome.
>
>Here are pages on the one in NYC:
>
>[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>
>Don <www.donwiss.com/joyrides> (e-mail link at page bottom).

That one is a half mile from my house. I watch the races in the summer
but don't ride on it much myself. There is now a fence around it but
it's easy enough to lift a bike over the fence.