Follow up on I received a traffic citation tonight. - Cycling Mob: Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and More

11-05-2003, 12:06 AM

Just thought I would give everyone an update on what I have found out since
my initial post. First of all many thanks to everyone who has helped by
pointing out the appropriate Arkansas law concerning my case, and all the
positive reinforcements I have received.

As far as information I have received so far, I have talked to my cousin,
who is a Probate lawyer here in town, and just so happens to belong to the
same bike club as me. He pretty much tells me I have two different
directions to go with this case. He said he can more than likely get the
ticket taken care of on the QT if I want to, but he would kind of like to
play it out to the end just to make a point. But then he also advised like
many others have, that I have to live in this town and I probably don't want
to be making too many enemies in high places.

I also emailed a district judge who is in our riding club at the advice of
the head of our bike club. I did receive a reply from him that was somewhat
restrained, but could be interpreted as very positive. It seems that if
this case were to go on appeal, it would most likely come before HIM. I
didn't realize this when I sent the email. Therefore he said he couldn't
really give any advice on how to handle my particular case, but he did
advise me to look up the law concerning bicycles in Arkansas, and to plead
not guilty when I come to court and present my case. Then he sent me a
second email, which quoted the same law 27-49-111, which everyone else has
cited. It certainly couldn't hurt to have a case like this to go before a
bicycling judge on appeal LOL.

I have also been in contact via email with the Arkansas Bicycle club. The
president of that club replied and told me he was going to forward me email
to a couple of lawyers they have in their club and get their take on things.
I have not heard back from him since then.

I also emailed the head of our local parks and recreation department here in
town that is also in our bike club. He expressed a lot of interest and
wanted all the pertinent information on the ticket. He implied he was going
to make some contacts of his own downtown.

My court date is currently set for 10 December 2003 so I have some time to
do some wiggling before things have to come to a head. As things stand now,
I believe my approach is going to be something like this. I am going to
approach the Chief of Police here in Jonesboro, probably with my cousin, or
some other legal representation at my side. Present him with my story, and
ask him to clean this entire mess up. Part of the agreement to clean it up
would have to be the young officer properly educated on what Arkansas Law
has to say about bicycle rights and responsibilities.

If the Chief is unwilling to make things right, then I suppose we are going
to go to court and rock and roll. The main point being, if humanly possible
I don't intend to have to pay any kind of fine related to this citation.

Really the only question would be the actual citation itself. Disobeyed a
police officer.

"27-49-107. Obedience to police officers required.
No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any lawful order or
direction of any police officer invested by law with authority to direct,
control, or regulate traffic."

Now in reality this is also a false charge in and of itself. I did not
willfully fail or refuse to comply with his order or direction. As a matter
of fact as soon as he ordered me only the sidewalk, and I realized he was an
officer ordering me there I got on the sidewalk. And when he was speaking
over the PA, he never did say how long he expected me to stay there. Then
you are going to have a great big question about whether or not it was a
lawful order. And I am going to argue to the best of my ability that it was
not a lawful order.

You know, here I am on the eve of being Forty years old, and all of my life
I have done my best to be a law abiding citizen, who gave the utmost of
respect to those charged with enforcing the law. In my life of driving, in
at least half of the states in the Union, I have received only ONE traffic
citation in my life and that was for speeding, and that was honestly caused
by a malfunction of my speedometer which I had repaired after I received the
ticket. Really not a bad record for someone driving over twenty years, but
I digress. Incidents like this cause a law-abiding citizen like myself
really question where they put their trust. Would I really want to have to
trust that little pimply pip-squeak cop with my life? As someone who served
six years in the US Navy, I found it was usually the Johnny Bad Asses who
were the first to turn tail and run when the **** hit the FAN. I just
really have to ask myself, how my of "our boys in blue" are like the young
officer I ran into that night? I honestly don't know, but I sure do hope It
isn't many.

Dan

11-05-2003, 01:15 AM

>Therefore he said he couldn't really give any advice on how to handle
>my particular case, but he did advise me to look up the law concerning
>bicycles in Arkansas, and to plead not guilty when I come to court and
>present my case. Then he sent me a second email, which quoted the same
>law 27-49-111, which everyone else has cited.

I would interpret that as a green light to take it to court.

I'm not a cop or an attorney, but I am familiar with organizational
behavior. The officer's superiors are probably all ready aware that he
made an error in judgement, Jonesboro isn't that big that this is
going to be buried in the murder stats, IMHO. Given that you have
alerted every cyclist worldwide and have ties to the local power
structure, I wouldn't worry about pissing off the powers that be.

My best guess is that if you go to court the officer will either not
show, in which case the charge will likely be dismissed, or the officer
will be ordered to go to court, in which case the charge will be dismissed
and the officer will be publicly humiliated.

He's going to hate you either way, but hey, your cousin's a lawyer and
you ride with a district judge, so what's he going to do about it.

I would go to the wall with it all the way, considering the effort
you've all ready expended.

However, as your cousin suggested, it might be better to have the
charge quietly withdrawn. The net result will be a dissatisfied cyclist
and a dissatisfied young officer, but it will cost the taxpayers a lot
less and it might save you future problems.

Once that is accomplished you could invite him to a barbecue or
something just to show you have no hard feelings.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>cwhitman@texastwr.utaust in.edu__________

11-05-2003, 01:50 AM

>"dlakey" [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

wrote in part:

>I have talked to my cousin,
>who is a Probate lawyer here in town, and just so happens to belong to the
>same bike club as me. He pretty much tells me I have two different
>directions to go with this case. He said he can more than likely get the
>ticket taken care of on the QT if I want to, but he would kind of like to
>play it out to the end just to make a point.

"On the QT"? I'd suggest that you don't tell your cousin the lawyer that you
just posted something on the Internet that could lead to him being hauled
before the local bar's disciplinary board. Any halfwitted drunken shyster could
of course claim that you misunderstood him but your cousin would still have
cause to be ticked at you.

As for the rest, no offense meant but your case isn't exactly Miranda v.
Arizona. You are using a 2x4 to swat a gnat. Lighten up a little or you'll be
so pumped by the time you get to court anything less than an immediate public
execution of the bonehead that gave you a hard time and a bad ticket will be a
tremendous letdown. Since that is *most* unlikely to occur, I'd advise you to
throttle back a bit.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

11-05-2003, 02:20 AM

In case you didn't realize it MR. Hunt, most of the things that go on in the
legal world are done "on the QT." Secondly, do you have any idea what my
cousins name is? This might not be LA here, but we at least 200 lawyers in
this town, probably 20 percent dealing in probate. So I don't think my
cousin has anything to worry about.

I realize this isn't a case of major legal ramifications. But if this case
is allow to stand, it could affect all of the bikers in this town in a
negative way. The only result I want out of this whole thing is just for
the ticket to go away, and for that young officer to understand the rights
that a bicycle has on the roads of Arkansas.

As far as using a 2X4 to swat a gnat, I consider it more of a shotgun
approach. Like I said, all I care about is that I don't have to pay that
stupid ticket. What ever it takes to prevent that is what it takes. Like I
have already said, I don't anticipate this case ever reaching court and that
is fine, but I will tell you right now, I don't intend to go up to the
municipal building and pay that ticket before my court date.

Will I go to jail rather than pay that ticket? No. If I was looking to go
to jail, I could have probably got my self thrown in jail that night when he
stopped me. But I will do everything short of going to jail to keep from
paying that stupid ticket. Sometimes you just have to stand up for what is
right.

Dan

"Hunrobe" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].com...
> >"dlakey" [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>
> wrote in part:
>
> >I have talked to my cousin,
> >who is a Probate lawyer here in town, and just so happens to belong to
the
> >same bike club as me. He pretty much tells me I have two different
> >directions to go with this case. He said he can more than likely get the
> >ticket taken care of on the QT if I want to, but he would kind of like to
> >play it out to the end just to make a point.
>
> "On the QT"? I'd suggest that you don't tell your cousin the lawyer that
you
> just posted something on the Internet that could lead to him being hauled
> before the local bar's disciplinary board. Any halfwitted drunken shyster
could
> of course claim that you misunderstood him but your cousin would still
have
> cause to be ticked at you.
>
> As for the rest, no offense meant but your case isn't exactly Miranda v.
> Arizona. You are using a 2x4 to swat a gnat. Lighten up a little or you'll
be
> so pumped by the time you get to court anything less than an immediate
public
> execution of the bonehead that gave you a hard time and a bad ticket will
be a
> tremendous letdown. Since that is *most* unlikely to occur, I'd advise you
to
> throttle back a bit.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt

11-05-2003, 04:20 AM

I want to thank you for moving forward with this. Too many people would
just swallow it and forget about it.

Moving forward with this is important to teach the young officer, and the
other officers who are watching, that they are liable for their actions,
that they cannot talk and act however they want to, just because they have a
badge and a gun. They serve the public, they aren't supposed to bully the
public.

It is also important that the rights of cyclists be upheld. If a policeman
doesn't know the law concerning cyclists we are in bad shape.

Please don't be discouraged by some people in the newsgroup, I am certain
the majority are solidly behind you.

Let us know what happens.

"dlakey" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]...
> Just thought I would give everyone an update on what I have found out
since
> my initial post. First of all many thanks to everyone who has helped by
> pointing out the appropriate Arkansas law concerning my case, and all the
> positive reinforcements I have received.
>
>
>
> As far as information I have received so far, I have talked to my cousin,
> who is a Probate lawyer here in town, and just so happens to belong to the
> same bike club as me. He pretty much tells me I have two different
> directions to go with this case. He said he can more than likely get the
> ticket taken care of on the QT if I want to, but he would kind of like to
> play it out to the end just to make a point. But then he also advised
like
> many others have, that I have to live in this town and I probably don't
want
> to be making too many enemies in high places.
>
>
>
> I also emailed a district judge who is in our riding club at the advice of
> the head of our bike club. I did receive a reply from him that was
somewhat
> restrained, but could be interpreted as very positive. It seems that if
> this case were to go on appeal, it would most likely come before HIM. I
> didn't realize this when I sent the email. Therefore he said he couldn't
> really give any advice on how to handle my particular case, but he did
> advise me to look up the law concerning bicycles in Arkansas, and to plead
> not guilty when I come to court and present my case. Then he sent me a
> second email, which quoted the same law 27-49-111, which everyone else has
> cited. It certainly couldn't hurt to have a case like this to go before a
> bicycling judge on appeal LOL.
>
>
>
> I have also been in contact via email with the Arkansas Bicycle club. The
> president of that club replied and told me he was going to forward me
email
> to a couple of lawyers they have in their club and get their take on
things.
> I have not heard back from him since then.
>
>
>
> I also emailed the head of our local parks and recreation department here
in
> town that is also in our bike club. He expressed a lot of interest and
> wanted all the pertinent information on the ticket. He implied he was
going
> to make some contacts of his own downtown.
>
>
>
> My court date is currently set for 10 December 2003 so I have some time to
> do some wiggling before things have to come to a head. As things stand
now,
> I believe my approach is going to be something like this. I am going to
> approach the Chief of Police here in Jonesboro, probably with my cousin,
or
> some other legal representation at my side. Present him with my story,
and
> ask him to clean this entire mess up. Part of the agreement to clean it
up
> would have to be the young officer properly educated on what Arkansas Law
> has to say about bicycle rights and responsibilities.
>
>
>
> If the Chief is unwilling to make things right, then I suppose we are
going
> to go to court and rock and roll. The main point being, if humanly
possible
> I don't intend to have to pay any kind of fine related to this citation.
>
>
>
> Really the only question would be the actual citation itself. Disobeyed a
> police officer.
>
>
>
> "27-49-107. Obedience to police officers required.
> No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any lawful order
or
> direction of any police officer invested by law with authority to direct,
> control, or regulate traffic."
>
>
>
> Now in reality this is also a false charge in and of itself. I did not
> willfully fail or refuse to comply with his order or direction. As a
matter
> of fact as soon as he ordered me only the sidewalk, and I realized he was
an
> officer ordering me there I got on the sidewalk. And when he was speaking
> over the PA, he never did say how long he expected me to stay there. Then
> you are going to have a great big question about whether or not it was a
> lawful order. And I am going to argue to the best of my ability that it
was
> not a lawful order.
>
>
>
> You know, here I am on the eve of being Forty years old, and all of my
life
> I have done my best to be a law abiding citizen, who gave the utmost of
> respect to those charged with enforcing the law. In my life of driving,
in
> at least half of the states in the Union, I have received only ONE traffic
> citation in my life and that was for speeding, and that was honestly
caused
> by a malfunction of my speedometer which I had repaired after I received
the
> ticket. Really not a bad record for someone driving over twenty years,
but
> I digress. Incidents like this cause a law-abiding citizen like myself
> really question where they put their trust. Would I really want to have
to
> trust that little pimply pip-squeak cop with my life? As someone who
served
> six years in the US Navy, I found it was usually the Johnny Bad Asses who
> were the first to turn tail and run when the **** hit the FAN. I just
> really have to ask myself, how my of "our boys in blue" are like the young
> officer I ran into that night? I honestly don't know, but I sure do hope
It
> isn't many.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>

11-05-2003, 04:57 AM

"Hunrobe" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].com...

> As for the rest, no offense meant but your case isn't exactly Miranda v.
> Arizona. You are using a 2x4 to swat a gnat. Lighten up a little or you'll
be
> so pumped by the time you get to court anything less than an immediate
public
> execution of the bonehead that gave you a hard time and a bad ticket will
be a
> tremendous letdown. Since that is *most* unlikely to occur, I'd advise you
to
> throttle back a bit.

Bob, read the guy's last paragraph again and you'll understand why, to him,
it's not a gnat. When a law-abiding citizen is treated like dirt by an
ignorant cop, wasting everybody's time on a triviality just to massage his
own ego, it's something you never forget.

I know, having been there myself.

I hope Dan triumphs and the cop is humiliated exactly the way he tried to
humilate Dan. If the system can accomplish that, then perhaps enough of
Dan's faith will be restored that he won't be suspicious and mistrustful of
the police from here on out, which is still a likely outcome.

Abuse of power is not a gnat.

RichC

11-05-2003, 06:31 AM

dlakey wrote:
:: Just thought I would give everyone an update on what I have found
:: out since my initial post. First of all many thanks to everyone who
:: has helped by pointing out the appropriate Arkansas law concerning
:: my case, and all the positive reinforcements I have received.
::
::
::
:: As far as information I have received so far, I have talked to my
:: cousin, who is a Probate lawyer here in town, and just so happens to
:: belong to the same bike club as me. He pretty much tells me I have
:: two different directions to go with this case. He said he can more
:: than likely get the ticket taken care of on the QT if I want to, but
:: he would kind of like to play it out to the end just to make a
:: point. But then he also advised like many others have, that I have
:: to live in this town and I probably don't want to be making too many
:: enemies in high places.
::
::
::
:: I also emailed a district judge who is in our riding club at the
:: advice of the head of our bike club. I did receive a reply from him
:: that was somewhat restrained, but could be interpreted as very
:: positive. It seems that if this case were to go on appeal, it would
:: most likely come before HIM. I didn't realize this when I sent the
:: email. Therefore he said he couldn't really give any advice on how
:: to handle my particular case, but he did advise me to look up the
:: law concerning bicycles in Arkansas, and to plead not guilty when I
:: come to court and present my case. Then he sent me a second email,
:: which quoted the same law 27-49-111, which everyone else has cited.
:: It certainly couldn't hurt to have a case like this to go before a
:: bicycling judge on appeal LOL.
::
::
::
:: I have also been in contact via email with the Arkansas Bicycle
:: club. The president of that club replied and told me he was going
:: to forward me email to a couple of lawyers they have in their club
:: and get their take on things. I have not heard back from him since
:: then.
::
::
::
:: I also emailed the head of our local parks and recreation department
:: here in town that is also in our bike club. He expressed a lot of
:: interest and wanted all the pertinent information on the ticket. He
:: implied he was going to make some contacts of his own downtown.
::
::
::
:: My court date is currently set for 10 December 2003 so I have some
:: time to do some wiggling before things have to come to a head. As
:: things stand now, I believe my approach is going to be something
:: like this. I am going to approach the Chief of Police here in
:: Jonesboro, probably with my cousin, or some other legal
:: representation at my side. Present him with my story, and ask him
:: to clean this entire mess up. Part of the agreement to clean it up
:: would have to be the young officer properly educated on what
:: Arkansas Law has to say about bicycle rights and responsibilities.
::
::
::
:: If the Chief is unwilling to make things right, then I suppose we
:: are going to go to court and rock and roll. The main point being,
:: if humanly possible I don't intend to have to pay any kind of fine
:: related to this citation.
::
::
::
:: Really the only question would be the actual citation itself.
:: Disobeyed a police officer.
::
::
::
:: "27-49-107. Obedience to police officers required.
:: No person shall willfully fail or refuse to comply with any lawful
:: order or direction of any police officer invested by law with
:: authority to direct, control, or regulate traffic."
::
::
::
:: Now in reality this is also a false charge in and of itself. I
:: did not willfully fail or refuse to comply with his order or
:: direction. As a matter of fact as soon as he ordered me only the
:: sidewalk, and I realized he was an officer ordering me there I got
:: on the sidewalk. And when he was speaking over the PA, he never did
:: say how long he expected me to stay there. Then you are going to
:: have a great big question about whether or not it was a lawful
:: order. And I am going to argue to the best of my ability that it
:: was not a lawful order.
::
::
::
:: You know, here I am on the eve of being Forty years old, and all of
:: my life I have done my best to be a law abiding citizen, who gave
:: the utmost of respect to those charged with enforcing the law. In
:: my life of driving, in at least half of the states in the Union, I
:: have received only ONE traffic citation in my life and that was for
:: speeding, and that was honestly caused by a malfunction of my
:: speedometer which I had repaired after I received the ticket.
:: Really not a bad record for someone driving over twenty years, but I
:: digress. Incidents like this cause a law-abiding citizen like
:: myself really question where they put their trust. Would I really
:: want to have to trust that little pimply pip-squeak cop with my
:: life? As someone who served six years in the US Navy, I found it
:: was usually the Johnny Bad Asses who were the first to turn tail and
:: run when the **** hit the FAN. I just really have to ask myself,
:: how my of "our boys in blue" are like the young officer I ran into
:: that night? I honestly don't know, but I sure do hope It isn't
:: many.
::

As a newbie cyclist myself, I'm here to say that I'm with you 100%. Please
keep us informed on how this all plays out.

Also, please don't let this one incident spoil things for you. There is
always a bad apple in every bunch -- not all cops are bad. Sure, this is a
silly thing -- but keep in mind the source and where you are! Hence, your
mission, as you already stated, is to get the fine removed and that
policeman PROPERLY educated. Hopefully, those around him will also learn
something and your community will be better off than it was previously.
Bicyclist in your community will hopefully be better off due to your
efforts. Every citizen should play a part in the well being of community.

::
::
:: Dan

11-05-2003, 07:32 AM

Your bias as a current or former police officer is showing a bit here, Bob.
Perhaps you think the police officer's behavior was acceptable?

"Hunrobe" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].com...
> >"dlakey" [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>
> wrote in part:
>
> >I have talked to my cousin,
> >who is a Probate lawyer here in town, and just so happens to belong to
the
> >same bike club as me. He pretty much tells me I have two different
> >directions to go with this case. He said he can more than likely get the
> >ticket taken care of on the QT if I want to, but he would kind of like to
> >play it out to the end just to make a point.
>
> "On the QT"? I'd suggest that you don't tell your cousin the lawyer that
you
> just posted something on the Internet that could lead to him being hauled
> before the local bar's disciplinary board. Any halfwitted drunken shyster
could
> of course claim that you misunderstood him but your cousin would still
have
> cause to be ticked at you.
>
> As for the rest, no offense meant but your case isn't exactly Miranda v.
> Arizona. You are using a 2x4 to swat a gnat. Lighten up a little or you'll
be
> so pumped by the time you get to court anything less than an immediate
public
> execution of the bonehead that gave you a hard time and a bad ticket will
be a
> tremendous letdown. Since that is *most* unlikely to occur, I'd advise you
to
> throttle back a bit.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Hunt

11-05-2003, 09:01 AM

>"dlakey" [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

wrote:

>In case you didn't realize it MR. Hunt, most of the things that go on in the
>legal world are done "on the QT." Secondly, do you have any idea what my
>cousins name is? This might not be LA here, but we at least 200 lawyers in
>this town, probably 20 percent dealing in probate. So I don't think my
>cousin has anything to worry about.
>
>I realize this isn't a case of major legal ramifications. But if this case
>is allow to stand, it could affect all of the bikers in this town in a
>negative way. The only result I want out of this whole thing is just for
>the ticket to go away, and for that young officer to understand the rights
>that a bicycle has on the roads of Arkansas.
>
>As far as using a 2X4 to swat a gnat, I consider it more of a shotgun
>approach. Like I said, all I care about is that I don't have to pay that
>stupid ticket. What ever it takes to prevent that is what it takes. Like I
>have already said, I don't anticipate this case ever reaching court and that
>is fine, but I will tell you right now, I don't intend to go up to the
>municipal building and pay that ticket before my court date.
>
>Will I go to jail rather than pay that ticket? No. If I was looking to go
>to jail, I could have probably got my self thrown in jail that night when he
>stopped me. But I will do everything short of going to jail to keep from
>paying that stupid ticket. Sometimes you just have to stand up for what is
>right.
>
>
>Dan

You misunderstand what I'm saying, Dan. I am very familiar with the workings of
both criminal and traffic court, at least here in the Chicago area. "Taking
care of [fill in the blank] on the QT" may sound like a harmless phrase to you
but I can think of several dozen lawyers whose reputations have been smeared by
just the suggestion that they "fix" things. I can also recall three judges that
I've testified before who are no longer judges as well as more than a few
former court clerks that lost their jobs for that very reason. Do some math.
200 lawyers, 20% of whom are probate lawyers = 40 lawyers. Do you really think
it would be that hard to identify your cousin, especially since he'd be the one
asking a court clerk to "lose" your ticket? That's the usual route to "taking
care of [a minor traffic ticket] on the QT". It also happens to be a felony in
most States.

As for the rest, I'm glad you are fighting the ticket. You were right and the
cop was wrong. I still believe that just for your own peace of mind however-
and to avoid eliciting a typical "organizational mindset" response- that you
should simply allow the system to work.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

11-05-2003, 09:10 AM

>"Rich Clark" [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

wrote in part:

>Bob, read the guy's last paragraph again and you'll understand why, to him,
>it's not a gnat.

--- remainder snipped for brevity ---

I was referring to the case, not his feelings. Of course he's angry. I would be
too. Read what I wrote. It was an attempt, an unsuccessful one it seems, to
encourage the OP in fighting the ticket ("bonehead that gave you a hard time
and a bad ticket", remember?) without giving himself an ulcer.

Regards,
Bob Hunt