Do you guys commute in the winter? - Page 12 - Cycling Mob: Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and More

12-14-2003, 06:00 AM

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:47:51 GMT, David
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

>And only cyclists get hit by cars backing out of their driveway.. What
>about joggers or walkers that go out at night? I see plenty of them on
>my bike route and only about 30% have any sort of blinkers strapped to
>their arms. And yet, we don't hear joggers being mowed down by people
>backing out of their drive ways.

When walking or jogging I can stop in 2-3 feet. When doing 20Mhp on a
bike that diseance is much longer.

>Also, bright lights from your bike can temporarily blind a motorist
>coming from the opposite lane. This is simply because, our pupil's
>diaphragm open up more in the absence of bright ambient light. By
>shining bright light to on coming traffic, you are making yourself
>unseen by them. Most motorists will flash their beam to tell you that
>you are blinding them, but cyclists with HID or super bright lights
>thought it was working when in fact, their stupidity act means that
>they run more risk of being hit by opposite traffic who can't ascertain
>the location of the cyclist. All they see is just a huge ball of
>light.

What made you think I shine the light onto oncoming traffic ? I point
it slightly downwards so I illuminate the ground up to about 30-40
feet before me. No traffic is blinded and noone flashes me. They do
see the light nonetheless, but only the outer part which is not
blinding. No more light than the cars driving-lights shine upwards on
overhead signs I guess.

I'll take a picture of the beam pattern when I have the opportunity.

>What you need at night are bright LED blinkers. The Planet Bike SPOT
>white LED blinker has shown to be very effective in alerting motorists
>at night of your presence.

Blinking lights are not allowed, neither rear nor front. Nobody
enforces that, but it could be a problem in case of an accident.

>I think if you read my past statement carefully, I was referring to
>generator lights which, by the way, has a bulb lifespan of only 100
>hours.

Ok, that's really low. My last halogen lamp lasted several hundred
hours before I upgraded to HID. I have no experience with generator
lights as they would _really_ suck on singletrack.

12-14-2003, 06:09 AM

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:11:41 -0500, "frkrygow"
<"frkrygow"@omitcc.ysu.edu> wrote:

>Yes, this is a downside of the mega-lights.
>
>Really, it's a product of crude optics. There is NO reason for a
>headlight or taillight to throw a large portion of its beam upwards.
>That's light output that consumes battery (or generator) power, does not
>light the road, and blinds other road users.
>
>Last night, I drove my (wife's) new car, which I'm still unfamiliar
>with. When I turned on the headlights in a parking lot while facing a
>wall, I was struck by the good optics. There was a very definite
>horizontal line with bright light below, and much dimmer illumination
>above. Obviously, the idea is to light the road and not blind others,
>while "wasting" less light.
>
>All vehicle lights do this to some extent, although some are better than
>others.
>
>Scratch that. All vehicle lights do that to some extent, _except_
>expensive, high-powered bicycle lights. Go figure!

I don't see much of a problem, but then again I don't have experience
with many different lights. The Niterider HID has a very defined cone
of light with much less light outside of that. I just point it so the
top of the cone hits the road 40-50 feet before me. Noone but dogs get
blinded from this. If I need to aim it higher or lower for some reason
I can adjust it with my hand in 1 second. I usually go a little higher
on fast offroad tracks.

I've heard the CatEye Stadium 3 has a much wider and less defined
beam, that's one of the reasons I went with the NR instead.

12-14-2003, 08:20 AM

Jens Kr. Kirkebø wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:11:41 -0500, "frkrygow"
> <"frkrygow"@omitcc.ysu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Last night, I drove my (wife's) new car, which I'm still unfamiliar
>>with. When I turned on the headlights in a parking lot while facing a
>>wall, I was struck by the good optics. There was a very definite
>>horizontal line with bright light below, and much dimmer illumination
>>above. Obviously, the idea is to light the road and not blind others,
>>while "wasting" less light.
>>
>>All vehicle lights do this to some extent, although some are better than
>>others.
>>
>>Scratch that. All vehicle lights do that to some extent, _except_
>>expensive, high-powered bicycle lights. Go figure!
>
>
> I don't see much of a problem, but then again I don't have experience
> with many different lights. The Niterider HID has a very defined cone
> of light with much less light outside of that. I just point it so the
> top of the cone hits the road 40-50 feet before me. Noone but dogs get
> blinded from this. If I need to aim it higher or lower for some reason
> I can adjust it with my hand in 1 second.

I've got an old Vistalight 400 series headlight that has adjustable
focus. It puts out a crisply focused cone of light that can be adjusted
for width. But it would be better, I think, if it spread in a
well-controlled rectangle, to better fit a road's lane. Again, this is
what all well-designed vehicle lights do.

But still, the Vista is much better than even the "spot" beams based on
MR-11 or MR-16 bulbs. I find that those waste considerable light.

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, omit what's between "at" and "cc"]

12-14-2003, 08:28 AM

Matt O'Toole wrote:

> "frkrygow" <"frkrygow"@omitcc.ysu.edu> wrote in message
> news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].edu...

>>So it occurs to me that generator
>>bulbs can probably be specified for more voltage than if they were used
>>in a battery system.
>
>
> ...or to run hotter, if that's what you mean.

Yep. That's what I meant.

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, omit what's between "at" and "cc"]

12-14-2003, 08:30 AM

> wheel driven type,.
> When I got back into regular biking a few years ago I expected to have a
> choice of generator light systems. \
> It was a surprise to find only 'suspect by their cheapness' systems at
> Canadian Tire, and nothing else.
> These Japanese commuter bike lights make sense, aside from the RIGHT
> fork mount. Still I am committed. Will post a report.
> Bernie
>

The problem with generator systems is their uncoolness factor, if you
can believe it or not. And the North American market has changed too
towards more offroading rather than on the road cycling at night that
makers now cater towards that large market segment. Generator lights
were designed to be utilitarian. Install it and forget it until your
next bulb change. That means, around 100 hrs of use or slightly more.
We, in North America, treat cycling as a form of recreational function
and not as a transport utility as in Japan and all parts of Asia.

Most of the advancement in generator development are found in Asia. If
you shop the bike stores in Japan or Asia, you will be offered a wide
variety of generator light selections, more so than in here. When I
was in Japan working, that's what I saw and that's how I got introduced
with the Sanden system.

By the way, there are more Sanden models than what you see at
bikelite.com. The more exotic models can rival that of a SON/Lumotec
system. So no, it's not only SON/Lumotec that delivers low drag, but
certainly it's a capable system and I saw only a few SON system being
used in Japan too.

12-14-2003, 08:41 AM

Rick Onanian wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:27:07 -0500, "frkrygow"
> <"frkrygow"@omitcc.ysu.edu> wrote:
>
> Do any existing battery lights offer "soft-start" advantages?
> Would it be easy for a soldering-capable person to retrofit?

Some of the big-buck digital systems provide soft start, along with
their other tricks. But the impression I have is that their reliability
hasn't been very good.

Two simpler approaches occur to me. One possibility is to locate a
thermistor of proper spec. These have more resistance when cold, less
when hot, so they would dampen that initial surge if simply wired in
series with the switch and bulb. "Hot" resistance isn't zero, though,
so there'd be some losses.

Another possibility might be a simple rheostat in place of the switch.
You'd crank the light up to full brighness in, say, a second or two.
Offhand, I don't see why that wouldn't do the job.

It might be a little difficult to prove it did any good, though. Bulb
life is a statistical thing, subject to variation no matter what you do.
And bulbs don't burn out rapidly enough for any one consumer to get a
good feeling for life comparisons.

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, omit what's between "at" and "cc"]

12-14-2003, 09:03 AM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>, Jens Kr.
Kirkebø <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:47:51 GMT, David
> <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>
> >And only cyclists get hit by cars backing out of their driveway.. What
> >about joggers or walkers that go out at night? I see plenty of them on
> >my bike route and only about 30% have any sort of blinkers strapped to
> >their arms. And yet, we don't hear joggers being mowed down by people
> >backing out of their drive ways.
>
> When walking or jogging I can stop in 2-3 feet. When doing 20Mhp on a
> bike that diseance is much longer.
>

20mph descent at night = 26km/h. Wow, I guess your place don't get too
many black ice at night or the early morning hour in winter?

In fact, last year, I witnessed a crash on my usual bike route run
along Cypress in Vancouver, BC, Canada. It was a cold morning and
black ice warning was issued. I had full spikes on both tires, because
I knew I will be descending on a rather steep section of the bike route
with possibility of encountering black ice. Even then, I did not
travel at a full 20mph knowing I have spikes on. You just don't know
what to expect. Except that I witnessed this lady going down the same
hill in front of me without spikes, hit a patch of black ice I suppose
and crashed very badly. So badly that an ambulance needed to be
called. While all the cyclists after that dismounted from the bikes,
some slipped because their bike shoes have no spikes, I coasted along
down safely at a very slow speed. Cops were yelling at me to dismount,
but I said I have snow tires and need not do that..

This is a true story and for BC riders, you probably have heard this.
The rational of this story is, winter riding unless it's done in
Arizona, Florida or Hawaii should be done with caution. Sure you've
got lights, but there is no lights in the world that you can use to
detect black ice. And by the way, there is a reason why they call it
black ice in the first place.
>
> What made you think I shine the light onto oncoming traffic ? I point
> it slightly downwards so I illuminate the ground up to about 30-40
> feet before me. No traffic is blinded and noone flashes me. They do
> see the light nonetheless, but only the outer part which is not
> blinding. No more light than the cars driving-lights shine upwards on
> overhead signs I guess.
>

Cyclists always sit higher than motorists and as such, beam dispersion
angle of bike lights are always set high enough to blind a motorist.
Some mountain bikes have a high bottom bracket as they were designed to
clear objects like logs and what not. These will translate to a high
center of gravity for the rider and as such, make cyclists sit much
much higher than say a road bike. When you are pointing your light,
you are not going to be shining it in front of the tire. That would be
stupid if you're travelling down a hill at 20mph. You would need to
project the light a little bit further than your front tire. That
means, beam projection from a high location will need to be elevated to
eye level, which happens to be, of the motorist.

> Blinking lights are not allowed, neither rear nor front. Nobody
> enforces that, but it could be a problem in case of an accident.
>

Maybe in your city. Right here, you need a rear light which must be of
red color. Either blinking or not.
I had a Planet Spot white LED in the rear before (which was illegal),
but had comments ranging from "fantastic to amazing" from motorists
who came up from behind. So, the Planet Bike SPOT LED really works,
but I can't use it as I said earlier. Red is for rear only.
The front is fine with the Planet SPOT as I need it for stops when my
generator light stops working.

In fact, the Lumotec Oval Plus (that works with a SON hub) has a built
in blue LED light for this purpose. So, it is legal.

12-14-2003, 09:17 AM

David wrote:

>The problem with generator systems is their uncoolness factor, if you
>can believe it or not. And the North American market has changed too
>towards more offroading rather than on the road cycling at night that
>makers now cater towards that large market segment. Generator lights
>were designed to be utilitarian.
>
Everybody wants to be stylin'. I want some of both utility and 'style'.

>
>Most of the advancement in generator development are found in Asia. If
>you shop the bike stores in Japan or Asia, you will be offered a wide
>variety of generator light selections, more so than in here. When I
>was in Japan working, that's what I saw and that's how I got introduced
>with the Sanden system.
>
The only generators I've seen recently were in Canadian Tire stores, and
they didn't look serious enough. I bought blinkies there in the past
and won't any more. Low quality - lenses fell off, whole blinkie fell
off the mount, etc. Just not good enough.
So... When this generator light arrives I'll try to give it a fair test.
I liked the compactness of the Sanden units - generator and light
together with no wiring.
Bernie

12-14-2003, 09:40 AM

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:03:17 GMT, David
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

>> When walking or jogging I can stop in 2-3 feet. When doing 20mph on a
>> bike that distance is much longer.
>
>20mph descent at night = 26km/h. Wow, I guess your place don't get too
>many black ice at night or the early morning hour in winter?

Who said anything about descents, about 15-20mph is my usual speed on
level ground in the winter, ice or not. And we have _lots_ of ice, I
do live in Norway. My Nokian Extreme 296 studded tires work wondefully
on ice, I have never crashed with them. They are far better than the
skinnier tires with only 106 stunds or so.

BTW, 20mph=32km/h

>Cyclists always sit higher than motorists and as such, beam dispersion
>angle of bike lights are always set high enough to blind a motorist.
>Some mountain bikes have a high bottom bracket as they were designed to
>clear objects like logs and what not. These will translate to a high
>center of gravity for the rider and as such, make cyclists sit much
>much higher than say a road bike. When you are pointing your light,
>you are not going to be shining it in front of the tire. That would be
>stupid if you're travelling down a hill at 20mph. You would need to
>project the light a little bit further than your front tire. That
>means, beam projection from a high location will need to be elevated to
>eye level, which happens to be, of the motorist.

No. Only if the motorist was directly in front of me, crash imminent.
But they're off to the side and the beam falls of sharply. I would
guess it is about 6-7 feet wide at most, by far not wide enough to
reach the road beside the bike path or the oncoming lane if I'm on the
road (very rarely happens).

My adjustment means the cone lights up from about 6 feet in front of
my tire and ends about 40 feet off. I can change this in 1 second if
need arises.

>> Blinking lights are not allowed, neither rear nor front. Nobody
>> enforces that, but it could be a problem in case of an accident.
>
>Maybe in your city. Right here, you need a rear light which must be of
>red color. Either blinking or not.

In the whole country in fact. You have to have a rear red light,
non-blinking to be totally legal. I use Niteriders LED which has 16
ultra-bright red leds and is powered from the same battery as the
front. It draws 3W and thus drops my battery life from 4:00 to 3:15
hours. No problem, my commute is 1 hr daily and I recharge every other
day.

12-14-2003, 11:10 AM

"David" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] hoo.dsafds.com...

> In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>, Jens Kr.
> Kirkebø <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

> > What made you think I shine the light onto oncoming traffic ? I point
> > it slightly downwards so I illuminate the ground up to about 30-40
> > feet before me. No traffic is blinded and noone flashes me. They do
> > see the light nonetheless, but only the outer part which is not
> > blinding. No more light than the cars driving-lights shine upwards on

> Cyclists always sit higher than motorists and as such, beam dispersion
> angle of bike lights are always set high enough to blind a motorist.

This is not true, or at least it shouldn't be. My lights are set to shine on
the ground about 20-30 feet ahead of me, whether it's my handlebar lights or my
helmet light, or both. There's no reason to be blinding oncoming traffic. I
ride bike paths a lot too, and I've never had any indication I was blinding
oncoming pedestrians. Not everyone is as careful or considerate about their
light adjustment though. And not all lights have well-focused beams. Those
Cateye Stadiums are particularly bad -- blindingly bright, and throwing light
everywhere.

Matt O.