Re: Critical Mass Tunnel Freaks - Cycling Mob: Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and More

07-13-2003, 07:27 PM

>Zoot Katz [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

wrote:

>My right to mobility, and that's all I have, hasn't been denied. I can
>go around them or pick up my bike and maybe go through them. Neither
>of which can be done with automobiles that then create their own
>traffic jam. There are public roads where various types of traffic,
>including pedestrians, are restricted though the destination is not
>prohibited and there remains other routes available.
>
>My point was that any drivers abandoning their vehicles could have
>proceeded in a self-propelled manner. AFAICT, their right to basic
>mobility wasn't being denied.
>
>Their automobiles' domination of the space was temporarily denied by
>their fellow citizens. Their privilege to drive on those public roads
>was being challenged hoping that they re-think their options.

I want to make sure that I understand you on this. Are you really saying that
you find no reason to fault those blocking your route in the hypothetical
situation I described? That you would abandon your bicycle there on the street
and continue to your destination as a pedestrian? Are you really the same Zoot
who has never had a problem with confronting rude or careless drivers in the
past? You've really mellowed! <g>
All kidding aside, I think that you know that you wouldn't be quite so
tolerant. It seems to me that you are simply trying to excuse unacceptable
behavior because you recognize the parallels between what I hypothesized and
what occurs on some C-M rides.
The hypothetical scenario was actually just a minor rewrite of what occurred on
the April 2001 Chicago C-M ride as reported at

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Look in the rides section under "The Hold-up Ride". All I did was substitute
parked cars for stationary bikes and accept Bob Matter's time estimate instead
of using the 15 minute estimate given by the report's author.
C-M can continue to claim that those types of incidents are protests in a good
cause (actually they will continue to talk out of *both* sides of their mouth
on that subject- "It was a bona fide protest" versus "It was just a rolling
street party"- but that's another discussion) but I've yet to meet anyone that
can explain how such infantile behavior does anything to help the non-cycling
public get out of cars and on bikes. That is the professed goal of C-M, right?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

07-14-2003, 05:51 AM

Hunrobe wrote:
>
> The hypothetical scenario was actually just a minor rewrite of what occurred on
> the April 2001 Chicago C-M ride as reported at
>
> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>
> Look in the rides section under "The Hold-up Ride". All I did was substitute
> parked cars for stationary bikes and accept Bob Matter's time estimate instead
> of using the 15 minute estimate given by the report's author.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. What 15 minute time estimate in what write up? Not here [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. And what is this "Bob Matter's time estimate" you are talking about?

> C-M can continue to claim that those types of incidents are protests in a good
> cause (actually they will continue to talk out of *both* sides of their mouth
> on that subject- "It was a bona fide protest" versus "It was just a rolling
> street party"- but that's another discussion)

It's not a protest OR a party, it's a protest AND a party.

> but I've yet to meet anyone that
> can explain how such infantile behavior does anything to help the non-cycling
> public get out of cars and on bikes. That is the professed goal of C-M, right?

Getting people to make wiser transportation choices than driving is one of many goals of CM. We would love it if they rode bikes, but we are also happy if they walk, take public transportation, rollerblade, etc.

The rides accomplish this by showing people that they can ride bikes to work or wherever and that people of all ages, sizes, races, religions, and classes can do it and they don't have to be athletes, wear spandex, or have an expensive bike. We also show them that biking is fun amongst other things, like building community. I often say to cagers and passersby during CM rides that "This is what a carfree world looks like; people talking to people face-to-face, not isolated in cars."

-Bob Matter
-----------
"Car culture is a lousy substitute for the real thing."
--Zoot Katz

07-14-2003, 09:40 PM

>"Robert J. Matter" [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

wrote in part:

>Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. What 15 minute time estimate in what write up? Not
>here [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. And
>what is this "Bob Matter's time estimate" you are talking about?

---snip----

Take another look at Chicago C-M's homepage at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
Click on "The Rides".
Click on 2001.
Scroll down to April- "The Chicago Holdup Ride--- aka The Bike Shop Ride".
Notice the second bullet point there, right after "More photos and writeup by
Matt Kamenicki", the one boasting of the "15 minute liberation". Or was that
headline just more C-M hyperbole?
As for the "30 minute Bob Matter time estimate", as I recall that was the time
estimate you gave in a post around the time of the lunacy on the Ike. If my
memory is faulty I'll retract that part of my post.

>Getting people to make wiser transportation choices than driving is one of
>many goals of CM. We would love it if they rode bikes, but we are also happy
>if they walk, take public transportation, rollerblade, etc.
>
>The rides accomplish this by showing people that they can ride bikes to work
>or wherever and that people of all ages, sizes, races, religions, and classes
>can do it and they don't have to be athletes, wear spandex, or have an
>expensive bike. We also show them that biking is fun amongst other things,
>like building community. I often say to cagers and passersby during CM rides
>that "This is what a carfree world looks like; people talking to people
>face-to-face, not isolated in cars."

This may well be what some C-M riders *intend* to accomplish. You and I simply
disagree on how effectively C-M rides accomplish that goal. You think it works.
I don't believe that it does.
I asked this question before but I still haven't gotten an answer from any C-M
supporter so I'll repeat it. Why can't C-M rides achieve their goals of raising
public awareness of cyclists as legitimate road users, encouraging alternative
methods of transportation, etc. without reverting to a "Might makes right. We
have the numbers that allow us to ride however and wherever we damn well
please." philosophy?

Regards,
Bob Hunt

07-15-2003, 01:45 AM

Hunrobe wrote:
>
> >"Robert J. Matter" [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>
> wrote in part:
>
> >Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. What 15 minute time estimate in what write up? Not
> >here [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. And
> >what is this "Bob Matter's time estimate" you are talking about?
>
> ---snip----
>
> Take another look at Chicago C-M's homepage at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
> Click on "The Rides".
> Click on 2001.
> Scroll down to April- "The Chicago Holdup Ride--- aka The Bike Shop Ride".
> Notice the second bullet point there, right after "More photos and writeup by
> Matt Kamenicki", the one boasting of the "15 minute liberation". Or was that
> headline just more C-M hyperbole?

Oh, that. I was there but I can't remember how long we were there exactly. 15 minutes seems a bit long, but it was a huge ride. I can't remember for sure but a cop may have come through there, parked his car in the intersection, and arrested someone, further adding to the delay. There's three stoplight cycles there too, Milwaukee, North, and Damen. Local residents and merchants are always happy to see us go by and calm that horrible intersection. And if you want to see delays, ride south on Milwaukee from that intersection some Friday or Saturday night around midnight or 1:00 a.m. and check out the solid line of double parked cars in front of all the night clubs.

> As for the "30 minute Bob Matter time estimate", as I recall that was the time
> estimate you gave in a post around the time of the lunacy on the Ike. If my
> memory is faulty I'll retract that part of my post.

I doubt I said any such thing. I took pictures of us entering and exiting I-290 that ride and they show us getting on at 19:22 and getting off at 19:27 for a grand total of 5 minutes. See

http://pages.prodigy.net/rjmatter/gallery/JUN29_07.gif
http://pages.prodigy.net/rjmatter/gallery/JUN29_16.gif

> >Getting people to make wiser transportation choices than driving is one of
> >many goals of CM. We would love it if they rode bikes, but we are also happy
> >if they walk, take public transportation, rollerblade, etc.
> >
> >The rides accomplish this by showing people that they can ride bikes to work
> >or wherever and that people of all ages, sizes, races, religions, and classes
> >can do it and they don't have to be athletes, wear spandex, or have an
> >expensive bike. We also show them that biking is fun amongst other things,
> >like building community. I often say to cagers and passersby during CM rides
> >that "This is what a carfree world looks like; people talking to people
> >face-to-face, not isolated in cars."
>
> This may well be what some C-M riders *intend* to accomplish. You and I simply
> disagree on how effectively C-M rides accomplish that goal. You think it works.
> I don't believe that it does.

The rides certainly are effective in getting the message out. How and when that message is acted upon is another matter, but the message is getting out, and any movement has to start with the message. We are trying to reverse decades of brainwashing by the auto companies and decades of auto dependent urban planning. Two solid CMers and now very good friends of mine learned about CM and the anti-car movement when they went to the Chicago Auto Show and saw CM anti-auto show protesters in front of McCormick Place and got flyers.

> I asked this question before but I still haven't gotten an answer from any C-M
> supporter so I'll repeat it. Why can't C-M rides achieve their goals of raising
> public awareness of cyclists as legitimate road users, encouraging alternative
> methods of transportation, etc. without reverting to a "Might makes right. We
> have the numbers that allow us to ride however and wherever we damn well
> please." philosophy?

Because CM is not about integrating with and accepting car culture. CM is about challenging car culture.

I suggest you read _Critical Mass: Bicycling's Defiant Celebration_ and watch these videos to get a better perspective of CM:

Return of the Scorcher
We Are Traffic
Bike Like U Mean It

-Bob Matter
-----------
"Antiwar activism nicely morphs off of the basic Critical Mass
message, which is that if a bicycle were everyone's main mode of
transportation, we would have less pollution, healthier bodies,
friendlier communities, safer streets, and independence from
foreign sources of oil." --Steven T. Jones, SF Bay Guardian

07-15-2003, 08:25 PM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] >,
Robert J. Matter <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>Hunrobe wrote:
>> I asked this question before but I still haven't gotten an answer from any C-M
>> supporter so I'll repeat it. Why can't C-M rides achieve their goals of raising
>> public awareness of cyclists as legitimate road users, encouraging alternative
>> methods of transportation, etc. without reverting to a "Might makes right. We
>> have the numbers that allow us to ride however and wherever we damn well
>> please." philosophy?
>
>Because CM is not about integrating with and accepting car culture. CM is about challenging car culture.

That's kind of a nonsequitor; I think Mr. Hunt's question was an
interesting one; could you answer it?

>I suggest you read _Critical Mass: Bicycling's Defiant Celebration_ and watch these videos to get a better perspective of CM:
>
> Return of the Scorcher
> We Are Traffic
> Bike Like U Mean It

I've read that book, though I haven't had the chance to see those movies.
I think critical mass is interesting, but I still don't know whether to
think it's a good idea. Part of the problem I have is that the people
who write about it seem more interested in waxing eloquent than making
clear arguments.

--Bruce Fields

07-17-2003, 09:43 AM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
Robert J. Matter <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>"J. Bruce Fields" wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Because CM is not about integrating with and accepting car culture.
>CM is about challenging car culture.
>>
>> That's kind of a nonsequitor; I think Mr. Hunt's question was an
>> interesting one; could you answer it?
>
>What part of "CM is not about integrating with and accepting car
>culture" don't you understand?

What I don't understand is how it answers Mr. Hunt's original question:

>> Why can't C-M rides achieve their goals of raising public awareness
>> of cyclists as legitimate road users, encouraging alternative methods
>> of transportation, etc. without reverting to a "Might makes right.
>> We have the numbers that allow us to ride however and wherever we
>> damn well please." philosophy?

Robert J. Matter again:
>You could try riding in CM to experience it instead of depending on
>others' interpretations too!

I have, though in a small town with a critical mass that may not be
particularly representative of critical masses elsewhere. The people
involved in it are great people and enthusiastic about what they do.
But I still don't really understand the point of it.

--Bruce F.

07-18-2003, 10:33 AM

>"Robert J. Matter" [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

wrote in answer to:

>Why can't C-M rides achieve their goals of raising
>> public awareness of cyclists as legitimate road users, encouraging
>alternative
>> methods of transportation, etc. without reverting to a "Might makes right.
>We
>> have the numbers that allow us to ride however and wherever we damn well
>> please." philosophy?
>
>Because CM is not about integrating with and accepting car culture. CM is
>about challenging car culture.
>
>I suggest you read _Critical Mass: Bicycling's Defiant Celebration_ and watch
>these videos to get a better perspective of CM:
>
> Return of the Scorcher
> We Are Traffic
> Bike Like U Mean It
>
>-Bob Matter

In other words, there really *is* no reason that the same message can't be
delivered without the silliness, selfishness, and outright stupidity attendant
to many of the C-M rides I've known. Thanks but no thanks then. I'll continue
to ride in a legal sane manner and to think poorly of those that act as if
might makes right.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

07-18-2003, 01:54 PM

18 Jul 2003 17:33:59 GMT,
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].com>,
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (Hunrobe) wrote:

>Thanks but no thanks then. I'll continue
>to ride in a legal sane manner and to think poorly of those that act as if
>might makes right.

I thought that was the basis for US foreign policy.

It's precisely why I so detest drivers who more frequently than
cyclists display that exact behavioural characteristic. They're scum.
They're using their ****wagons as weapons for intimidating other road
users. The whole marketing of ever larger SUVs bears this out and
advertising glorifies it in order to flog more units.

Car culture is our society's most debilitating sickness.
--
zk