it's snow problem

01-28-2004, 04:33 AM

I have a question for all of you facing cycling in the current snow
conditions.

Given a choice of routes between the rather better plowed main roads and
the less plowed secondary streets ; which do you choose?

On my commute, in milder weather conditions I usually get off the main city
streets where possible and use the residential streets. there is less
traffic which is always preferable. But in this weather I'm begining to
wonder which is safer; a plowed road with lots of traffic or an unplowed
road with little traffic?

Oh, I saw Idiot Cyclist of the Month last week:

I'm on my way to work one evening [19:30 so it is full dark in similar snow
conditions as above & lit up like a 'christmas tree' as a co-worker
described me once] when another bike turns on to the road in front of me: no
lights whatsoever. Coming up to a cross street he, without looking back and
without signalling, moves to the left to be in the left turn position
[though the street widens a bit there is no separate left turn lane] in
front of a car. He had enough room but the driver was understandably annoyed
and taps the horn. at the intersection the car driver taps the horn again
because I assume he does not realize that the bike is where it should be to
make a left turn.

My atttude, rather coldy, was that I hoped he didn't reproduce before he
Darwined himself.

Discuss!

--
'Just because you're wearing a tie
Doesn't mean you're bloody important'
-chumbawumba

01-28-2004, 05:06 AM

In article
<4TORb.36495$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].net.cable.r ogers.com>,
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] says...
>
> I have a question for all of you facing cycling in the current snow
> conditions.
>
> Given a choice of routes between the rather better plowed main roads and
> the less plowed secondary streets ; which do you choose?
>
> On my commute, in milder weather conditions I usually get off the main city
> streets where possible and use the residential streets. there is less
> traffic which is always preferable. But in this weather I'm begining to
> wonder which is safer; a plowed road with lots of traffic or an unplowed
> road with little traffic?

Depends: Do you feel like you can reasonably take the lane on the
plowed roads? If so, I'd go that route. If there's a lot of traffic
such that you might have to hug the shoulder where the plows left the
snow, then I'd stick to the unplowed secondary roads.

At least you have a choice; when I was riding my bike to school in the
winter, there was only one route.

.....

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

01-28-2004, 05:36 AM

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:33:52 GMT, "loki" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:
> Given a choice of routes between the rather better plowed main roads and
>the less plowed secondary streets ; which do you choose?

Personally, I'm probably out plowing in that situation. I recommend
doing whatever it takes not to share a road with a plow -- if the
main road is so well plowed that they're not plowing it, good. If
the less plowed secondary is so ignored that they're not plowing it,
good.

If you ride where a plow is running, and the driver fails to notice
you or to properly raise his plow and turn off his sander, you could
be hurt or killed by snow or road debris flying off the plow, or by
a collision with the plow blade itself, and the sand/salt coming out
of the spreader would hurt you and damage your bike. If there's a
puddle, the plow will send that excessively cold water directly onto
you, drenching you. Visibility can be TERRIBLE while plowing roads;
snow and salt and dirt fly up off the plow blade onto the windshield
very suddenly, reducing visibility to zero until the windshield
wipers can catch up. The plow driver, meanwhile, has to remember
what was in front of him and behind him, and brake/steer
appropriately.

On the weather channel last night, they showed a clip of a
pedestrian on a sidewalk getting knocked down by snow flying off a
snowplow -- and the second plow drive, following the first one, was
unable to see the pedestrian who blended into the snow (due to the
fact that he was covered in snow, so well camouflaged).

If you ride in the snow, it may be a good idea to wait for the storm
to stop and the plows to catch up.
--
Rick Onanian

01-28-2004, 05:59 AM

"loki" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:4TORb.36495$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].net.cab le.rogers.com...
> On my commute, in milder weather conditions I usually get off
the main city
> streets where possible and use the residential streets. there is
less
> traffic which is always preferable. But in this weather I'm
begining to
> wonder which is safer; a plowed road with lots of traffic or an
unplowed
> road with little traffic?

It really depends on the exact conditions. If the road with the
traffic is clear then it could well be better. If it's so messy
that it's hard to stay up then it's better elsewhere. The nice
part is that falling on ice we slide instead of getting road rash
and with enough snow we don't even bruise.

Doug
For email, a sense of wonder.

01-28-2004, 06:04 AM

Rick Onanian wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:33:52 GMT, "loki" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
> wrote:
>
>>Given a choice of routes between the rather better plowed main roads and
>>the less plowed secondary streets ; which do you choose?
>
>
> Personally, I'm probably out plowing in that situation. I recommend
> doing whatever it takes not to share a road with a plow -- if the
> main road is so well plowed that they're not plowing it, good. If
> the less plowed secondary is so ignored that they're not plowing it,
> good.
>
> If you ride where a plow is running, and the driver fails to notice
> you or to properly raise his plow and turn off his sander, you could
> be hurt or killed by snow or road debris flying off the plow, or by
> a collision with the plow blade itself, and the sand/salt coming out
> of the spreader would hurt you and damage your bike. If there's a
> puddle, the plow will send that excessively cold water directly onto
> you, drenching you. Visibility can be TERRIBLE while plowing roads;
> snow and salt and dirt fly up off the plow blade onto the windshield
> very suddenly, reducing visibility to zero until the windshield
> wipers can catch up. The plow driver, meanwhile, has to remember
> what was in front of him and behind him, and brake/steer
> appropriately.
>
> On the weather channel last night, they showed a clip of a
> pedestrian on a sidewalk getting knocked down by snow flying off a
> snowplow -- and the second plow drive, following the first one, was
> unable to see the pedestrian who blended into the snow (due to the
> fact that he was covered in snow, so well camouflaged).
>
> If you ride in the snow, it may be a good idea to wait for the storm
> to stop and the plows to catch up.

I think there is a lot in favor of this reasoning!

Some of the plow people around here are clearly idiots. We've
had no end of bad situations where entire lines of mailboxes
along the street have been taken down by plows; people (myself
among them), buried by snow from passing plows while shoveling
walks; and no shortage of damage to parked cars, sometimes days
after a storm. I don't think it is possible to underestimate
the damage these guys, particularly the city fellows it seems,
can do you.

My primary concern when riding home during plowing ops in or
shortly after a snowfall is encountering a plowing truck. I'd
try to avoid them even if it means working a bit harder pedaling
through deeper snow of a not yet attended to street.

SMH

01-28-2004, 08:24 AM

In article <4TORb.36495$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].net.cable.r ogers.com>,
"loki" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> writes:

> Oh, I saw Idiot Cyclist of the Month last week:
>
> I'm on my way to work one evening [19:30 so it is full dark in similar snow
> conditions as above & lit up like a 'christmas tree' as a co-worker
> described me once] when another bike turns on to the road in front of me: no
> lights whatsoever. Coming up to a cross street he, without looking back and
> without signalling, moves to the left to be in the left turn position
> [though the street widens a bit there is no separate left turn lane] in
> front of a car. He had enough room but the driver was understandably annoyed
> and taps the horn.

Maybe the rider was relying on some sort of mirror. OTOH if he
wouldn't invest in lights, probably wouldn't buy a mirror either.
Not that a mirror would have been appropriate -- a shoulder check
could have alerted the driver that the rider was up to something.

> at the intersection the car driver taps the horn again
> because I assume he does not realize that the bike is where it should be to
> make a left turn.

A signal certainly would have helped there.

I get to see all kinds of mixtures of proper and "improper" cycling
styles, too. Like the ones who properly ride in the street, even
well away from the door zone, but cross intersections by riding
through the crosswalk. Maybe such inconsistency is worse than
plain 'ol, consistently bad POB riding styles.

> My atttude, rather coldy, was that I hoped he didn't reproduce before he
> Darwined himself.

At least he got some of it right (the direction positioning thing).
I just hope he gets the rest of it soon. And I hope he doesn't
drive the same way. Unfortunately, too many drivers do.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
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01-28-2004, 01:41 PM

"Rick Onanian" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote
>
> If you ride in the snow, it may be a good idea to wait for the storm
> to stop and the plows to catch up.

Snow plows are usually pretty easy to spot coming up behind, they're the one
vehicle I'll make an exception for & get off the road. A lot of times these
guys have been up all night, and, by definition, the visibility is usually
poor. I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to plow around me, either.
Other than that, snow is no reason to stay home.

01-28-2004, 06:56 PM

"Rick Onanian" <spamsink@cox.net> wrote in message
news:0nhf10pv22ncig1q84lnnbje1cs0m56pco@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:33:52 GMT, "loki" <nolookee@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Given a choice of routes between the rather better plowed main roads and
> >the less plowed secondary streets ; which do you choose?
>
> Personally, I'm probably out plowing in that situation. I recommend
> doing whatever it takes not to share a road with a plow -- if the
> main road is so well plowed that they're not plowing it, good. If
> the less plowed secondary is so ignored that they're not plowing it,
> good.

I hadn't considered that - snowplows that is. Stupid of me; I've seen them
of course but didn't consider them coming up behind me. Though I am lit up
fairly well: Two rear blinkies with different flash patterns; on my
backpack, one on the bike; DOT approved reflective strips on the backpack. a
forward light; plus I received a gift of those little motion sensitive
flashers on the wheels; PLUS the usual reflectors.

I did see that video of the guy almost getting nailed. Scary. But given
the road conditions I am taking the entire lane and I think would be hard to
miss with all the lights. Plus I don't 'think' Guelph operates those big
bruisers on city streets.

--
'And then one day you find,
Ten years have got behind you.
No one told you when to run
You missed the starting gun' -pink floyd

01-28-2004, 07:08 PM

"David Kerber" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].net...
> In article
> <4TORb.36495$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].net.cable.r ogers.com>,
> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] says...
[...]
> > traffic which is always preferable. But in this weather I'm begining to
> > wonder which is safer; a plowed road with lots of traffic or an unplowed
> > road with little traffic?
>
> Depends: Do you feel like you can reasonably take the lane on the
> plowed roads? If so, I'd go that route. If there's a lot of traffic
> such that you might have to hug the shoulder where the plows left the
> snow, then I'd stick to the unplowed secondary roads.

The thing that bothers me about the main streets is what I call the chop:
churned up snow that has a gravelly consistency over top of frozen asphalt.
It's negotiable without taking a spill - as long a vehicle doesn't startle
me or throw off a spray on me and the chop isn't too deep.

The residential roads: Well if they are completely unplowed that's slow
going but manageable. But once a few autos have driven through it the ruts
makes things difficult. I have the choice of trying to follow a rut or
avoiding them. Crossing over the ruts [like at the throwoff from cleared
drives and side streets] is where it gets difficult. Of course a fall on the
res road is less like to end up with me under a vehicle I guess. [*Fingers
crossed* I have not yet taken a spill this winter.]

The ideal winter road is one with the snow packed down solid: provides good
traction but isn't a tough slog. Salt melted roads are hard on the bike
'course.

--
'And then one day you find,
Ten years have got behind you.
No one told you when to run
You missed the starting gun' -pink floyd

01-29-2004, 07:15 AM

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:56:55 GMT, "loki" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:
>But given
>the road conditions I am taking the entire lane and I think would be hard to
>miss with all the lights. Plus I don't 'think' Guelph operates those big
>bruisers on city streets.

Chances are that the main thoroughfares are plowed by the big
trucks; small highways are plowed by big and small dumptrucks, and
most residential streets are plowed by pickups and small dumptrucks.

However, the big trucks tend to have more consistent ability to see;
the small dumptrucks and pickups can see more with clear glass, but
the snow and water flies up off the plow onto the windshield and
side windows (and mirrors), creating the zero visibility condition I
described in my previous message.

And, as mentioned by somebody else, the drivers are often plowing
all night and day, and are likely to be excessively tired. I always
switch to a relief driver when I get too tired, but most drivers
I've met, it seems, don't.
--
Rick Onanian