handlebar height - Page 11 - Cycling Mob: Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and More

04-17-2004, 10:25 AM

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 20:49:00 -0700, Bernie
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>In almost 50 years of bicycle riding I never had a problem with the
>headset other than having to tighten it up now and then. No breaks or
>anything. AND infinite adjustability, with a simple wrench.

I've never had any problem with either type of headset; and the
"simple wrench" of which you speak (32 or 36mm, thin and strong) is
uncommon and costs money. OTOH, threadless headsets are 100%
serviced with a single allen wrench, which you've already got for
the rest of the bike.

>Sorry, but I like threaded headsets. They are also attractive and slim
>vs BUTT UGLY

Those are fine reasons to like one or the other. Ignorance about
adjustment procedures or serviceability is not a good reason.
--
Rick Onanian

04-17-2004, 10:47 AM

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 05:01:09 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>"Rick Onanian" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
>> On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 04:36:37 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
>> Really? Most bikes I see with threaded headsets are also too low,
>> even after you adjust the stem as high as is safe.
>
>I don't see this. The stems usually have quite a bit of rise to them to

Must be a regional thing, or maybe you're talking about mountain
bikes. I've _never_ seen a road bike with a quill stem that rises.

>begin with, even though the adjustment range is limited. The stems on
>threadless headset equipped bicycles usually have very little rise, though

Most threadless stems have a reasonable amount of rise, they're just
installed upside-down.

>you can now buy stems with adjustable rise. Part of the problem now, is the
>tendency to sell people bikes that are too small for them.

A too-small bike will have the bars too low regardless of the stem.

>The bottom line is that you can add components to get the handlebars to the
>proper height, but it's an extra expense unless you get the shop to include
>the extender for free at the time of purchase.

What extender? Most shops will give you an even swap on a stem with
a better angle, installed pointing up.

>> Or, you could just get a stem with some rise to it, and reduce the risk to
>your crotch in an unlikely endo.
>
>Agreed, but why do most road bikes come with stems that have almost no rise?

Marketing...and it's the same for threaded and threadless.

>A stem with rise is certainly an option, but the objection is that with a
>threaded headset the stems usually had sufficient rise without the need for

The only threaded stems I've seen that don't drop ("classic 7
shape") have been on mountain bikes. While one could certainly fit
an aftermarket threaded stem with rise, that would cost money (just
like your claim of the extender for threadless).

>a change, if the bike were properly fitted. Again, part of the problem now,
>is the tendency to sell people bikes that are too small for them, which
>requires more rise in the stem.
>
>See: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] which
>states:
>
>"In General people ride bikes that are too small. <snip> Sore neck, sore
>lower back, sore hand---and almost without exceptions it's caused by a frame
>that's too small and doesn't let them raise the bars high enough to cure
>
>Of course Grant Peterson must be wrong, because he sells a lot less bicycles
>than Trek!

Grant Peterson said _nothing_ about stems there. He attributed the
handlebar height to incorrect frame sizing. He's right. Few bikes
come stock with a stem that can compensate for an incorrectly fit
frame.

I went to the Rivendell site to find some examples of new road bikes
sold with threaded stems. Lo and behold, the pictured stems have
drop, not rise. Of course, they would be happy to change the stem,
just as an LBS will with the common threadless stems available.
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...ell_whole2.jpg
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...natlantis2.jpg
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...mbouillet2.jpg

I checked a few other bike companies' websites, but mostly found
threadless stems. The Bianchi Brava and Strada come with a threaded,
adjustable stem. The rest of the Bianchi road bikes were threadless.
Of course, some threadless bikes come with adjustable stems too.

>> Come off it. Threadless and threaded are both fine systems, given proper
>education on how to use them.
>
>They are. With a device like the SpeedLifter, combined with a new stem (or
>adjustable stem), I'd say that threadless is actually better. The question
>is why we now have to spend $20-80 extra to achieve proper fit (or live with
>improper fit).

It's not necessary to spend any extra money if you're buying a new
bike; most shops will swap a threadless stem for free. OTOH, I don't
know if they will for a threaded that offers inadequate height.
--
Rick Onanian

04-17-2004, 10:47 AM

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 05:01:09 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>"Rick Onanian" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
>> On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 04:36:37 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
>> Really? Most bikes I see with threaded headsets are also too low,
>> even after you adjust the stem as high as is safe.
>
>I don't see this. The stems usually have quite a bit of rise to them to

Must be a regional thing, or maybe you're talking about mountain
bikes. I've _never_ seen a road bike with a quill stem that rises.

>begin with, even though the adjustment range is limited. The stems on
>threadless headset equipped bicycles usually have very little rise, though

Most threadless stems have a reasonable amount of rise, they're just
installed upside-down.

>you can now buy stems with adjustable rise. Part of the problem now, is the
>tendency to sell people bikes that are too small for them.

A too-small bike will have the bars too low regardless of the stem.

>The bottom line is that you can add components to get the handlebars to the
>proper height, but it's an extra expense unless you get the shop to include
>the extender for free at the time of purchase.

What extender? Most shops will give you an even swap on a stem with
a better angle, installed pointing up.

>> Or, you could just get a stem with some rise to it, and reduce the risk to
>your crotch in an unlikely endo.
>
>Agreed, but why do most road bikes come with stems that have almost no rise?

Marketing...and it's the same for threaded and threadless.

>A stem with rise is certainly an option, but the objection is that with a
>threaded headset the stems usually had sufficient rise without the need for

The only threaded stems I've seen that don't drop ("classic 7
shape") have been on mountain bikes. While one could certainly fit
an aftermarket threaded stem with rise, that would cost money (just
like your claim of the extender for threadless).

>a change, if the bike were properly fitted. Again, part of the problem now,
>is the tendency to sell people bikes that are too small for them, which
>requires more rise in the stem.
>
>See: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] which
>states:
>
>"In General people ride bikes that are too small. <snip> Sore neck, sore
>lower back, sore hand---and almost without exceptions it's caused by a frame
>that's too small and doesn't let them raise the bars high enough to cure
>
>Of course Grant Peterson must be wrong, because he sells a lot less bicycles
>than Trek!

Grant Peterson said _nothing_ about stems there. He attributed the
handlebar height to incorrect frame sizing. He's right. Few bikes
come stock with a stem that can compensate for an incorrectly fit
frame.

I went to the Rivendell site to find some examples of new road bikes
sold with threaded stems. Lo and behold, the pictured stems have
drop, not rise. Of course, they would be happy to change the stem,
just as an LBS will with the common threadless stems available.
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...ell_whole2.jpg
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...natlantis2.jpg
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...mbouillet2.jpg

I checked a few other bike companies' websites, but mostly found
threadless stems. The Bianchi Brava and Strada come with a threaded,
adjustable stem. The rest of the Bianchi road bikes were threadless.
Of course, some threadless bikes come with adjustable stems too.

>> Come off it. Threadless and threaded are both fine systems, given proper
>education on how to use them.
>
>They are. With a device like the SpeedLifter, combined with a new stem (or
>adjustable stem), I'd say that threadless is actually better. The question
>is why we now have to spend $20-80 extra to achieve proper fit (or live with
>improper fit).

It's not necessary to spend any extra money if you're buying a new
bike; most shops will swap a threadless stem for free. OTOH, I don't
know if they will for a threaded that offers inadequate height.
--
Rick Onanian

04-17-2004, 10:47 AM

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 05:01:09 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>"Rick Onanian" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
>> On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 04:36:37 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
>> Really? Most bikes I see with threaded headsets are also too low,
>> even after you adjust the stem as high as is safe.
>
>I don't see this. The stems usually have quite a bit of rise to them to

Must be a regional thing, or maybe you're talking about mountain
bikes. I've _never_ seen a road bike with a quill stem that rises.

>begin with, even though the adjustment range is limited. The stems on
>threadless headset equipped bicycles usually have very little rise, though

Most threadless stems have a reasonable amount of rise, they're just
installed upside-down.

>you can now buy stems with adjustable rise. Part of the problem now, is the
>tendency to sell people bikes that are too small for them.

A too-small bike will have the bars too low regardless of the stem.

>The bottom line is that you can add components to get the handlebars to the
>proper height, but it's an extra expense unless you get the shop to include
>the extender for free at the time of purchase.

What extender? Most shops will give you an even swap on a stem with
a better angle, installed pointing up.

>> Or, you could just get a stem with some rise to it, and reduce the risk to
>your crotch in an unlikely endo.
>
>Agreed, but why do most road bikes come with stems that have almost no rise?

Marketing...and it's the same for threaded and threadless.

>A stem with rise is certainly an option, but the objection is that with a
>threaded headset the stems usually had sufficient rise without the need for

The only threaded stems I've seen that don't drop ("classic 7
shape") have been on mountain bikes. While one could certainly fit
an aftermarket threaded stem with rise, that would cost money (just
like your claim of the extender for threadless).

>a change, if the bike were properly fitted. Again, part of the problem now,
>is the tendency to sell people bikes that are too small for them, which
>requires more rise in the stem.
>
>See: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] which
>states:
>
>"In General people ride bikes that are too small. <snip> Sore neck, sore
>lower back, sore hand---and almost without exceptions it's caused by a frame
>that's too small and doesn't let them raise the bars high enough to cure
>
>Of course Grant Peterson must be wrong, because he sells a lot less bicycles
>than Trek!

Grant Peterson said _nothing_ about stems there. He attributed the
handlebar height to incorrect frame sizing. He's right. Few bikes
come stock with a stem that can compensate for an incorrectly fit
frame.

I went to the Rivendell site to find some examples of new road bikes
sold with threaded stems. Lo and behold, the pictured stems have
drop, not rise. Of course, they would be happy to change the stem,
just as an LBS will with the common threadless stems available.
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...ell_whole2.jpg
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...natlantis2.jpg
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...mbouillet2.jpg

I checked a few other bike companies' websites, but mostly found
threadless stems. The Bianchi Brava and Strada come with a threaded,
adjustable stem. The rest of the Bianchi road bikes were threadless.
Of course, some threadless bikes come with adjustable stems too.

>> Come off it. Threadless and threaded are both fine systems, given proper
>education on how to use them.
>
>They are. With a device like the SpeedLifter, combined with a new stem (or
>adjustable stem), I'd say that threadless is actually better. The question
>is why we now have to spend $20-80 extra to achieve proper fit (or live with
>improper fit).

It's not necessary to spend any extra money if you're buying a new
bike; most shops will swap a threadless stem for free. OTOH, I don't
know if they will for a threaded that offers inadequate height.
--
Rick Onanian

04-17-2004, 10:47 AM

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 05:01:09 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>"Rick Onanian" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
>> On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 04:36:37 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
>> Really? Most bikes I see with threaded headsets are also too low,
>> even after you adjust the stem as high as is safe.
>
>I don't see this. The stems usually have quite a bit of rise to them to

Must be a regional thing, or maybe you're talking about mountain
bikes. I've _never_ seen a road bike with a quill stem that rises.

>begin with, even though the adjustment range is limited. The stems on
>threadless headset equipped bicycles usually have very little rise, though

Most threadless stems have a reasonable amount of rise, they're just
installed upside-down.

>you can now buy stems with adjustable rise. Part of the problem now, is the
>tendency to sell people bikes that are too small for them.

A too-small bike will have the bars too low regardless of the stem.

>The bottom line is that you can add components to get the handlebars to the
>proper height, but it's an extra expense unless you get the shop to include
>the extender for free at the time of purchase.

What extender? Most shops will give you an even swap on a stem with
a better angle, installed pointing up.

>> Or, you could just get a stem with some rise to it, and reduce the risk to
>your crotch in an unlikely endo.
>
>Agreed, but why do most road bikes come with stems that have almost no rise?

Marketing...and it's the same for threaded and threadless.

>A stem with rise is certainly an option, but the objection is that with a
>threaded headset the stems usually had sufficient rise without the need for

The only threaded stems I've seen that don't drop ("classic 7
shape") have been on mountain bikes. While one could certainly fit
an aftermarket threaded stem with rise, that would cost money (just
like your claim of the extender for threadless).

>a change, if the bike were properly fitted. Again, part of the problem now,
>is the tendency to sell people bikes that are too small for them, which
>requires more rise in the stem.
>
>See: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] which
>states:
>
>"In General people ride bikes that are too small. <snip> Sore neck, sore
>lower back, sore hand---and almost without exceptions it's caused by a frame
>that's too small and doesn't let them raise the bars high enough to cure
>
>Of course Grant Peterson must be wrong, because he sells a lot less bicycles
>than Trek!

Grant Peterson said _nothing_ about stems there. He attributed the
handlebar height to incorrect frame sizing. He's right. Few bikes
come stock with a stem that can compensate for an incorrectly fit
frame.

I went to the Rivendell site to find some examples of new road bikes
sold with threaded stems. Lo and behold, the pictured stems have
drop, not rise. Of course, they would be happy to change the stem,
just as an LBS will with the common threadless stems available.
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...ell_whole2.jpg
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...natlantis2.jpg
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/ima...mbouillet2.jpg

I checked a few other bike companies' websites, but mostly found
threadless stems. The Bianchi Brava and Strada come with a threaded,
adjustable stem. The rest of the Bianchi road bikes were threadless.
Of course, some threadless bikes come with adjustable stems too.

>> Come off it. Threadless and threaded are both fine systems, given proper
>education on how to use them.
>
>They are. With a device like the SpeedLifter, combined with a new stem (or
>adjustable stem), I'd say that threadless is actually better. The question
>is why we now have to spend $20-80 extra to achieve proper fit (or live with
>improper fit).

It's not necessary to spend any extra money if you're buying a new
bike; most shops will swap a threadless stem for free. OTOH, I don't
know if they will for a threaded that offers inadequate height.
--
Rick Onanian

04-17-2004, 10:48 AM

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 13:25:26 -0400, Rick Onanian <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:
>I've never had any problem with either type of headset; and the
>"simple wrench" of which you speak (32 or 36mm, thin and strong) is
>uncommon and costs money. OTOH, threadless headsets are 100%

I forgot to mention, the allen wrench for a threadless stem is much
easier to pack in a seat bag.
--
Rick Onanian

04-17-2004, 10:48 AM

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 13:25:26 -0400, Rick Onanian <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:
>I've never had any problem with either type of headset; and the
>"simple wrench" of which you speak (32 or 36mm, thin and strong) is
>uncommon and costs money. OTOH, threadless headsets are 100%

I forgot to mention, the allen wrench for a threadless stem is much
easier to pack in a seat bag.
--
Rick Onanian

04-17-2004, 10:48 AM

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 13:25:26 -0400, Rick Onanian <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:
>I've never had any problem with either type of headset; and the
>"simple wrench" of which you speak (32 or 36mm, thin and strong) is
>uncommon and costs money. OTOH, threadless headsets are 100%

I forgot to mention, the allen wrench for a threadless stem is much
easier to pack in a seat bag.
--
Rick Onanian

04-17-2004, 10:48 AM

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 13:25:26 -0400, Rick Onanian <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:
>I've never had any problem with either type of headset; and the
>"simple wrench" of which you speak (32 or 36mm, thin and strong) is
>uncommon and costs money. OTOH, threadless headsets are 100%

I forgot to mention, the allen wrench for a threadless stem is much
easier to pack in a seat bag.
--
Rick Onanian

04-17-2004, 12:07 PM

"Terry Morse" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]...
> Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>
> > The reason that the manufacturers went to the
> > threadless headsets is because it reduces manufacturing cost.
>
> You're claiming facts not in evidence. No evidence of lower
> manufacturing costs exists, AFAIK.

It save a tremendous amount of cost. There is no need to manufacture
multiple lengths of forks with threaded steerers, for every different frame
size. There is no need for different stem sizes; rise is set with spacers.

It would be a fine system if they left the steerer tubes fairly long and had
the bike shops cut them to length at the time of sale, and in fact this
occurs in some cases. You still lose adjustability though.