Entering the queue at a stop sign - Page 2

07-23-2003, 06:40 PM

"Roly Poly Man" wrote
> As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
> is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.
>
> Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
> up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
> not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
> car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
> lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.
>
> On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
> vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.
>
> Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
> busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
> make two crossings?
>

With 5 to 10 vehicles lined up, I will frequently come up the left side , on
the center line (eliminates the right hook scenario) and switch to the right
side as I'm coming up on the last two or three vehicles waiting for the stop
sign. I do this by using the gap created as the first vehicle leaves the
stop sign and the second one hasn't started to move yet. I then clear the
stop sign in conjunction with the vehicle along side of me, using him to
block traffic from the left and provide visibility to traffic from the
right. If the vehicle at the stop sign shows any sign of intending to make
a right turn, I wait and go with the next vehicle, or (traffic permitting),
go through the stop sign on the right turning vehicle's left side. Driver's
in my area don't seem to mind, possibly in part because I move quickly and I
am very careful not to hold anyone up.

Left turns: keeping to the right and making two crossings could be a safe
bet in really heavy, fast traffic. If my speed and traffic speed permits, I
move into the left turn lane like a car. Signal your intentions, plan your
move a long way ahead, and be ready to bail out and do the "stay right and
make two crossings" scenario if you have to. Another option if the cross
street is a quite one is to make a right turn, a quick U-turn (check for
traffic behind you first), and proceed straight through the intersection.
HTH,
--
mark

07-23-2003, 07:42 PM

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:20:50 -0400, Rick Onanian <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:

>My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a
>situation where I feel both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers.
>Consider:
> -that I may have to violate the right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous
>in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two, oncoming traffic
>visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left.
> -if I don't do that, I have to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the
>straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into potentially much faster
>vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

On city streets, I move into the rightmost through lane. I don't go
out of my way to be an obstruction, but I have the right to use the
road safely, and slowing down a few drivers by a few seconds doesn't
bother me much.

On a highway with a rideable hard shoulder, I look back to make sure
no one's going to turn into me (if there's any question, I slow and
let them pass), then go straight through on the very left edge of the
turn lane (prepared to stop if anyone entering the road from the right
gets confused). This seems to be, on balance, the best way to do it
when motor traffic speeds are that high, though I can see that there
is a good argument for merging into the right through lane even in
that situation. What I would never do is remain on the shoulder (or
bike lane) to the right of a right-turn-only lane.

--
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes--our
ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit
to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be
walking around."
-- G.K. Chesterton

07-23-2003, 07:56 PM

On 23 Jul 2003 14:53:55 -0700, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (Roly Poly Man)
wrote:

>As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
>is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Your bicycle is also a vehicle.

>Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
>up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
>not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
>car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
>lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.
>
>On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
>vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

I try to get in the queue. If traffic is too heavy to permit this (I
find this is usually the case at a red light, rather than a stop
sign), I stay to the right, but stop just behind the last car ahead of
me at the stop. Then I make sure I stay ahead of the first car behind
me.

I only pass on the right if there is a full lane's width (that is,
room for another car) between each car and the curb, and no one is
signalling a right turn or nosing toward the curb. This pretty much
never happens to me at a stop sign, but it sometimes does at a red
light.

The reason you've never seen a cyclist merge into motor traffic is
that most cyclists seem to think they should stay as close as possible
to the curb at all times.

--
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes--our
ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit
to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be
walking around."
-- G.K. Chesterton

07-24-2003, 06:44 AM

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:36:12 -0400, David L. Johnson
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
> gear. Don't let clipping in get in the way of negotiating traffic.

I haven't a choice; these pedals are terrible, and the shoes slip right off
them if I'm not clipped in or if I'm on the wrong side of the pedal. The
pedals are terrible. Period.

--
Rick Onanian

07-24-2003, 06:56 AM

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:40:52 GMT, mark <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>
wrote:
> With 5 to 10 vehicles lined up, I will frequently come up the left side ,
> the center line (eliminates the right hook scenario) and switch to the
> side as I'm coming up on the last two or three vehicles waiting for the
> sign. I do this by using the gap created as the first vehicle leaves the
> stop sign and the second one hasn't started to move yet. I then clear the

This sounds dangerous -- if the driver fails to look ahead, and moves
forward based on seeing (out of the corner of his eye) the car in front
of him drive away, you're smooshed. And yes, many drivers will go based
on the insufficient data collected while they're paying attention to
something else.

> HTH,
> --
> mark
--
Rick Onanian

07-24-2003, 07:15 AM

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:53:55 -0700, Roly Poly Man wrote:

> On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
> vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

I know this is going to sound weird, but this is based on three years of
constant commuting, so I've just learned from experience.

In the city I get in the queue and ride with traffic. Motorists are used
to seeing bikes and respect us as traffic more. In the suburbs I pass on
the right with caution. Reason being that in the suburbs for some reason
motorists are less used to having cyclists around and thus far less
tolerant. If you pass them on the right you at least have a chance of
getting to a wider road after the stop. If you wait in the queue you're
sure to have some angry maniac freaking out because they have to wait
behind a bike. They'll pass you on the left either way. They'll pass you
on the left even if there is a semi on-coming in the other lane of traffic
and there's a sheer cliff to your right. They don't care about you. So I
figure, if it's okay to ALWAYS pass me on the left, regardless of
circumstances, there's no harm in making the judicious choice to pass on
the right once in a while.

As far as turning goes, it's best to learn to integrate with traffic as
best as possible. Signal, wait for a safe opening and turn left like
everyone else. It helps to have a rear-view mirror. You shouldn't rely on
it, but it helps because you have an idea of if you need to slow down,
etc. to get ready for your chance to turn.

Preston

07-24-2003, 03:29 PM

> My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a
> situation where I feel both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers.
> Consider:
> -that I may have to violate the right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous
> in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two, oncoming traffic
> visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left.
> -if I don't do that, I have to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the
> straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into potentially much faster
> vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

Signal your intent to merge left, shoulder check, and then merge. Try
to do this enough ahead of time that there will be a gap that you can
enter. If the lanes are of sufficient width, you should be able to
ride at the right hand side of the straight lane allowing faster
traffic to pass within the lane. You could also (although not
technically correct) ride along the left-hand side of the right turn
lane. That way it is obvious that you are not turning right, you will
not have conflict with the cars in the straight lane, and cars turning
right should have sufficient room to do so without interfering with
you.

Tanya

07-24-2003, 04:38 PM

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (Roly Poly Man) wrote in message news:<ef3e9e44.0307231353.462464f5@posting.google. com>...
> As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
> is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.
>
> Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
> up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
> not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
> car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
> lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.
>
> On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
> vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

There are three things that you can do:
1. Enter the queue with the vehicles. This is most correct according
to vehicle code. You are a vehicle. I would do this if its not going
to be a long wait.
However, IMO one of the advantages of riding a bike as opposed to
driving a car is not having to put up with the congestion that having
a large oversized inflexible vehicle creates. I want to get to where I
am going quickly. If I wanted to sit idling at slower than walking
speed in a congested area I would have taken a car not a bicycle.
Which brings us to:
2. Passing on the left. (especially useful if you want to turn left at
the stop sign) The correct way to pass other stopped or slower moving
vehicles. Sometimes made impractical by the haphazard way that cars
stop in a lane at an intersection.
3. Passing on the right. This is potentially dangerous, but its a
judgment call. Is there any place for a car to suddenly pull out of
the lane? If not its easier to do this. Be aware though that a
passenger may decide to get out at a stop sign as well opening their
door into you. Practically speaking, cyclists pass on the right in
stopped traffic often. Then when you get to the front of the line,
observe whether the car at the front appears to be turning right or
going straight. If turning right let it go by.. You can also (although
also not technically correct) stop a little bit ahead of the white
line, so that when you both go you go straight ahead of the car
turning right.

Some cyclist pass on the left and then move to the right as they
approach the intersection but a "weaving" pattern can make you look
unpredictable - something you want to avoid.

> Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
> busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
> make two crossings?

Same as you would in a car. Shoulder check. Signal left. Merge lanes
one at a time. Make sure to do this well in advance of the
intersection. If there is a left turn lane you want to be on the right
side of the lane. If there is no left turn lane you want to be on the
left side of the straight/left turn lane, however ideally not to the
left of anyone turning left. Usually I will stay in the center of the
lane at the red light (in the queue) and when the light turns green
move further left into the intersection to wait for oncoming traffic
to allow vehicles going straight through in my lane to pass.

At busier intersections or ones where I just run out of time to merge
(and sometimes ones with a gaggle of streetcar tracks to cross, I hate
that) I ride to the other side of the intersection, stop, dismount and
then walk the bike to the other side as a pedestrian.

07-27-2003, 03:13 PM

If there is a long line I go to the front. I also smile and wave at the
driver of the first car. If only 2 or 3 cars, I act like a car and get in
line too.

If there is no cars in line and cars coming from the back, I take the lane.
If there is a turning lane, I get on the wide white line so I don't hold up
cars wanting to make right turns on red.

One of the best tips ever givin to me was to ride in the grove made by the
passenger side (right) wheels. This makes passing cars change lanes.
Otherwise, they might run you off the road.

Good luck and ride safe.

07-28-2003, 07:16 PM

I think y'all ought to queue up jes like aevery american citizen. It
commands respect and minimizes contact with the same idiot again.

What's the damn hurry?

--
Robin Hubert <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>