Entering the queue at a stop sign - Page 3

07-28-2003, 11:30 PM

In article <3f260daf$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].au>,
bigfloppyllama <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> writes:

> Honestly, I feel
> that it's more dangerous to stop in the bike lane since no cyclist I can
> think of expects you to stop. Your thoughts on this?

Do the hand signal, stop, and avoid getting a ticket.

cheers,
Tom

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07-29-2003, 10:40 AM

bigfloppyllama <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message news:<3f260daf$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].au>...
> I have a question regarding stop signs. In the case of something like
> this, do you stop, yield, or just pass right through the stop sign:
> http://floppyllama.homestead.com/files/aaaa.jpg It's a US road so the
> cars travel on the right side of the road, along with bikes. Red is a
> stop sign, blue arrow is the direction you're going. Yellow is the split
> of the road.
>
> The road is rarely traveled on, as it just passes by a residential area
> along side a freeway. I see most riders coast through it like it doesn't
> exist, but there were two cops on sunday handing out tickets (I happen
> to be a proud owner of one) apparently due to a few accidents (although
> as long as the cyclist stays inside the bike lane, it's the fault of the
> car for hitting it). Besides the casual sunday riders I have yet to see
> a single cyclist even take note of the intersection. Honestly, I feel
> that it's more dangerous to stop in the bike lane since no cyclist I can
> think of expects you to stop. Your thoughts on this?

Do any pedestrians cross the intersection? If so its good to stop!
Also if a bicycle is turning left from the cross street he/she would
most likely be entering the bike lane, so it would be a source of
conflict if you do not stop. (plus cars making wide turns, ya its
their fault but you don't want to be hit by one rgardless) The turning
cyclist should see you but at an all way stop will not be anticipating
you travelling straight through.

Signal that you are stopping before you stop so that riders behind you
can anticipate this. Its probably okay from a safety standpoint just
to yield rather than stop but you also want to be sure not to get a
ticket.

Since these are stop signs I think that stopping should be required at
a T. But I also think that at signalled T-intersections exemptions
should be made that a cyclist can proceed straight through after
stopping and making sure all is clear. (similar to right turns on reds
for all vehicles)

I have nearly been hit while riding a couple of times turning left at
an intersection with the right of way (green light) where a cyclist
blows a red light at a T, and also as a pedestrian nearly hit by
cyclists blowing the red at the T. So you cannot assume that it is
perfectly okay to not stop at T intersections.

Tanya

07-29-2003, 04:20 PM

Rick Onanian <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

> I originally stopped in this situation, but no longer have the
> balls to stop in the face of that danger.

I'm a little lost. Where's the danger in the illustrated situation?
Getting hit from behind by another cyclist?

There's a similar T-intersection on my commute home, except it's
controlled by a signal instead of a 3-way stop. If the light is red it's
short, so I stop as a courtesy to the other vehicles.

RFM
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07-29-2003, 05:11 PM

In article <Xns93C7BAA847D64fritz2masonernet@139.187.81.1>,
Fritz M <news@m4s0n3r.n3+> writes:
> Rick Onanian <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>
>> I originally stopped in this situation, but no longer have the
>> balls to stop in the face of that danger.
>
> I'm a little lost. Where's the danger in the illustrated situation?

There could be conflict if a cyclists blows through out-of-turn,
and a car simultaneously turns left from the cross street.
The previous-previous poster (bigfloppyllama) mentions there
had already been accidents there; presumably that's why the
enforcement.

So, there's also the "danger" of being stopped by the cops and
getting a ticket.

> Getting hit from behind by another cyclist?

I hope cyclists aren't /that/ blind or unprepared!

cheers,
Tom

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07-29-2003, 06:11 PM

"Tom Keats" <tomk2003@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news

v57gb.bmp.ln@bud.garden.local...
> In article <Xns93C7BAA847D64fritz2masonernet@139.187.81.1>,
> Fritz M <news@m4s0n3r.n3+> writes:
> > Rick Onanian <spamsink@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >> I originally stopped in this situation, but no longer have the
> >> balls to stop in the face of that danger.
> >
> > I'm a little lost. Where's the danger in the illustrated situation?
>
> There could be conflict if a cyclists blows through out-of-turn,
> and a car simultaneously turns left from the cross street.
> The previous-previous poster (bigfloppyllama) mentions there
> had already been accidents there; presumably that's why the
> enforcement.
>
> So, there's also the "danger" of being stopped by the cops and
> getting a ticket.
>
> > Getting hit from behind by another cyclist?
>
> I hope cyclists aren't /that/ blind or unprepared!
>
>

I was so blind/unpreared today that, 3 blocks from work on my 15 mile
commute, I was making a turn and braked when I detected an approaching car
from the right. I braked with my front as I usually do and met a slickened
manhole cover. Bike's ok, I lost skin.

--
Robin Hubert <cv2572@earthlink.net>

07-29-2003, 08:32 PM

>We've got these waterworks bronze plates/covers imbedded in the streets,
>I guess over where valves go. Those things can really sneak up on ya,
>'cuz they're so small. They've caught me out a couple of times.
>We also used to have really slick white crosswalk paint that got me a
>few times while on foot, out in the rain. Fortunately, the city has
>changed its paint recipe since then.

We've got a subway, and I've got a new commute (work moved). The
subway has big grates over it, I'm figuring that they are air exhaust
thingies. Anyway, I never really noticed them before.

When I say big, I mean across the whole lane, like 12 feet square.

Their openings aren't big enough to trap a bicycle wheel, but I
know they are going to be slicker than owl snot in a fresh rain,
and really bad news next winter. I'm still working out the
coexistence details, but the one at 21st and M streets looks
bad because I have to hang a left just after it.

If it ain't Scylla it's Charybdis.

Good features of the new commute include better parking and much
easier access to coffee, bad features are much heavier traffic on
the optimal route and many more red lights. My knee is getting
used to the more frequent accelerations.

Amazing how we adapt, I should have this route under control in a
couple of years.

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07-29-2003, 08:49 PM

In article <3f273e64$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].au>,
bigfloppyllama <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> writes:

> Besides the two intesections like the one I pointed out I stop,
> queue up and go when it's my turn, but it just seems dumb to make
> cyclists succumb to signs that were put in to prevent cars from
> colliding, not bikes.

Well, maybe they were put there to prevent /vehicles/ from
colliding. And some drivers sure seem to have lousy aims.

But I'm not out to browbeat ya. If you can truly, confidently
pull it off without getting clobbered, by all means go for it,
if you don't mind risking getting a ticket. Your call.

There's a stop sign here that I regularly blow through. It's
not at an intersection; it's where some vestigal, paved-over,
abandoned RR tracks once crossed a street. I figure the sign
is still there for cars, because there's still a bit of a bump
there, and cars might bottom-out if they hit it at speed.

I'm not fond of arbitrary & useless rules either. But, I guess
there's no harm in really thinking about them before deciding
they're truly arbitrary & useless.

cheers,
Tom

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07-29-2003, 09:45 PM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
"Eric S. Sande" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> writes:

> When I say big, I mean across the whole lane, like 12 feet square.

So much for bunny-hopping.

> Their openings aren't big enough to trap a bicycle wheel, but I
> know they are going to be slicker than owl snot in a fresh rain,
^^^^^^^^

Claire's delightful way with words lives on. I'm gonna have to
use "scoogying" again, in her honour. I'm still not clear as
to whether scoogying is scooter-propelling one's self with both
feet while straddling the saddle, or doing so with one foot, after
partially dismounting but still standing on one pedal. For now,
I'm opting for the latter.

> and really bad news next winter. I'm still working out the
> coexistence details, but the one at 21st and M streets looks
> bad because I have to hang a left just after it.
>
> If it ain't Scylla it's Charybdis.

I'm gonna have to pull a Fabrizio, and ask if those are STDs.
I've got an old Emerson, Lake & Palmer album, with names of
tunes thatsound like that, on the back of the cover.

> Good features of the new commute include better parking and much
> easier access to coffee
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If the coffee's really good, there ya go! It's worth it! Especially
if you can get decent growlies to go with it, like cinnamon rolls with
sour cream icing.

cheers,
Tom

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07-30-2003, 08:09 AM

"Tom Keats" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:6id7gb.vrp.ln@bud.garden.local...
> In article <JPFVa.27019$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].itd.earthli nk.net>,
> "Robin Hubert" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> writes:
>
> > I was so blind/unpreared today that, 3 blocks from work on my 15 mile
> > commute, I was making a turn and braked when I detected an approaching
car
> > from the right. I braked with my front as I usually do and met a
slickened
> > manhole cover. Bike's ok, I lost skin.
>
> Ouch. Wish I could upload you a rum & coke for painkiller. Actually,
> I wish I could upload you a highball-sized B-52 in an Old Fashioned
> glass, with a vanilla bean swizzle ... but I can't afford one of those
> right now, myself. Did you go straight down? I hate when that happens;
> it happens so fast. On the positive side, as you say, the bike's okay.
> And at least there wasn't a tailgating rider to stack on you, and
> possibly run over your chainstay.
>
> We've got these waterworks bronze plates/covers imbedded in the streets, I
> guess over where valves go. Those things can really sneak up on ya,
> 'cuz they're so small. They've caught me out a couple of times.
> We also used to have really slick white crosswalk paint that got me a
> few times while on foot, out in the rain. Fortunately, the city has
> changed its paint recipe since then.
>
>
> Hope you heal quickly,

Thanks for the well-wishes, Tom. In addition to the skinned elbow and left
hip, I am nursing my first ever thrombosed external hemorrhoid. I'm really
freaking pissed about that (signs that I am getting old). I'm hoping that,
while causing no pain, riding will help resolve the clot. I can't imagine
being off the bike for weeks.

--
Robin Hubert <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>

07-30-2003, 09:01 AM

In article <3f273e64$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].au>,
bigfloppyllama <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>Section 3 would make it seem like a car turning left at said
>intersection could enter the bicycle lane, but it actually referrs to
>right hand turns when the bicycle lane and traffic lane converge. So,
>technically I *should* be under no danger running the sign.

So if you run the stop sign, simultaneously with a left-turning car
driver drifting into the bike lane, then, congratulations, you were both
in the wrong.

We could find plenty of other situations where it's clearly safe for one
party to break the rules of the road as long as everyone else is
following them. There's a good reason for this--it means that in many
situations, a crash won't happen unless both parties involved make
simultaneous mistakes. A little redundancy here is a good thing.

--Bruce Fields