Track cycling question - Page 2 - Cycling Mob: Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and More

08-21-2004, 10:04 AM

Harold Buck writes:

> I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
> clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
> pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

Most pull-outs of road riders, for instance, occur when starting,
because under high pedal force, release forces are small relative to
pedaling force and can occur without the rider sensing the effect.

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted. Clips, straps, and slot-cleats are not subject to
rotation release but they can pull out just the same. Riders often
used double straps for this reason.

Jobst Brandt
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

08-21-2004, 10:04 AM

Harold Buck writes:

> I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
> clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
> pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

Most pull-outs of road riders, for instance, occur when starting,
because under high pedal force, release forces are small relative to
pedaling force and can occur without the rider sensing the effect.

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted. Clips, straps, and slot-cleats are not subject to
rotation release but they can pull out just the same. Riders often
used double straps for this reason.

Jobst Brandt
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

08-21-2004, 10:04 AM

Harold Buck writes:

> I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
> clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
> pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

Most pull-outs of road riders, for instance, occur when starting,
because under high pedal force, release forces are small relative to
pedaling force and can occur without the rider sensing the effect.

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted. Clips, straps, and slot-cleats are not subject to
rotation release but they can pull out just the same. Riders often
used double straps for this reason.

Jobst Brandt
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

08-21-2004, 10:34 AM

In article <H8MVc.9005$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

> Harold Buck writes:
>
> > I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
> > clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
> > pedals? Or do they use both?
>
> Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
> of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
> cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

> It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
> foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
> words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
> rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
> it is not wanted.

....This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.

I think that most of the riders you see with toe straps are not using
the old-style slotted cleat. Most of the pedals used with clips and
straps in the Olympics also have a mechanism intended to lock the shoe
to the pedal and the straps are used as a second measure to keep the
shoe on the pedals. In a way, the straps are there to prevent the shoe
from being ripped apart during the start.

-WG

08-21-2004, 10:34 AM

In article <H8MVc.9005$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

> Harold Buck writes:
>
> > I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
> > clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
> > pedals? Or do they use both?
>
> Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
> of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
> cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

> It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
> foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
> words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
> rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
> it is not wanted.

....This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.

I think that most of the riders you see with toe straps are not using
the old-style slotted cleat. Most of the pedals used with clips and
straps in the Olympics also have a mechanism intended to lock the shoe
to the pedal and the straps are used as a second measure to keep the
shoe on the pedals. In a way, the straps are there to prevent the shoe
from being ripped apart during the start.

-WG

08-21-2004, 10:34 AM

In article <H8MVc.9005$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

> Harold Buck writes:
>
> > I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
> > clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
> > pedals? Or do they use both?
>
> Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
> of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
> cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

> It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
> foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
> words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
> rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
> it is not wanted.

....This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.

I think that most of the riders you see with toe straps are not using
the old-style slotted cleat. Most of the pedals used with clips and
straps in the Olympics also have a mechanism intended to lock the shoe
to the pedal and the straps are used as a second measure to keep the
shoe on the pedals. In a way, the straps are there to prevent the shoe
from being ripped apart during the start.

-WG

08-21-2004, 10:34 AM

In article <H8MVc.9005$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:

> Harold Buck writes:
>
> > I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
> > clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
> > pedals? Or do they use both?
>
> Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
> of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
> cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

> It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
> foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
> words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
> rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
> it is not wanted.

....This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.

I think that most of the riders you see with toe straps are not using
the old-style slotted cleat. Most of the pedals used with clips and
straps in the Olympics also have a mechanism intended to lock the shoe
to the pedal and the straps are used as a second measure to keep the
shoe on the pedals. In a way, the straps are there to prevent the shoe
from being ripped apart during the start.

-WG

08-21-2004, 11:23 AM

Harold Buck <no_one_knows@comcast.net> writes:

> I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
> instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
> they use both?
>

Clipless/Automatic pedals are used on the track, but the real power start
specialists tend to use rat-trap pedals and toe clips.

There is less chance of pulling out.

Remember the OZ rider in either the last Olympic Follies or a relatively
recent Worlds who pulled out and immediately raised his hand in expectation of
a Restart?

The poor Wanker shoulda read the rule book a little more diligently though. A
disconnection is _not_ a ``Mechanical''

--
le Vent a Dos, Davey Crockett
Six Day Site: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

08-21-2004, 11:23 AM

Harold Buck <no_one_knows@comcast.net> writes:

> I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
> instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
> they use both?
>

Clipless/Automatic pedals are used on the track, but the real power start
specialists tend to use rat-trap pedals and toe clips.

There is less chance of pulling out.

Remember the OZ rider in either the last Olympic Follies or a relatively
recent Worlds who pulled out and immediately raised his hand in expectation of
a Restart?

The poor Wanker shoulda read the rule book a little more diligently though. A
disconnection is _not_ a ``Mechanical''

--
le Vent a Dos, Davey Crockett
Six Day Site: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

08-21-2004, 11:23 AM

Harold Buck <no_one_knows@comcast.net> writes:

> I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
> instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
> they use both?
>

Clipless/Automatic pedals are used on the track, but the real power start
specialists tend to use rat-trap pedals and toe clips.

There is less chance of pulling out.

Remember the OZ rider in either the last Olympic Follies or a relatively
recent Worlds who pulled out and immediately raised his hand in expectation of
a Restart?

The poor Wanker shoulda read the rule book a little more diligently though. A
disconnection is _not_ a ``Mechanical''

--
le Vent a Dos, Davey Crockett
Six Day Site: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]