Ti vs. Carbon Fiber - Page 2 - Cycling Mob: Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and More

02-28-2005, 04:21 AM

Your LAST bike? Hah! Anyone contemplating Carbon or Ti is someone
with at least a mild bike addiction! It won't be your last bike. I
bought an Independent Fab Crown Jewel Ti.... and two months later I HAD
to have a Bianchi Pista. Then, I saw a lovely hand-made steel touring
frame that I had to have.... the stable grows and occasionally you sell
one off... but bull**** your wife, not us.

Ok... so... now that we admit that we have a problem, we can go
forward.

I have to echo Goose somewhat. Why is the choice between Carbon and
Ti? If you're looking for a great quality bike, steel is definitely
not to be ruled out. I've owned carbon, steel, ti, and aluminum, and
I've liked the ride of the steel bikes the best. I still kick myself
for selling my Waterford back in grad school. Today, I've got a
bianchi steel bike, a Gios, and an Independent Fab Ti Crown Jewel. The
IF is fantastic... and will last forever.... but the 10 year old
bianchi eros rides just as nice.

The ride difference is this - the IF seems to flex a lot - but never in
the wrong direction. I can hammer the pedals without tourqing the rear
triangle - which happened on a waterford RS-11. My waterford made from
853 steel never did that. The Gios Lite is a pretty inexpensive steel
frame, but rides wonderfully.

I'm not a fan of carbon. I don't like the ride quality of what I have
sampled. I personally don't even like the carbon fork on my IF. I
really preferred the steel fork on my Waterford (oh I miss her) and the
steel fork on my Gios. Yes, the carbon is more damping of vibration
and almost acts as a suspension fork - but I prefer steel.

Are you looking at carbon and Ti from a weight perspective? My
philosophy is this - if you are concerned about weight, go get a
body-fat measurment taken. If you're a guy who is over 12% body fat,
then you have no excuse for buying a bike based on weight.

If you're looking at your *last* bike, or if you can even say that
knowing that it isn't true... then I presume that nobody is sponsoring
you. Meaning again, weight should not be a concern at all. An extra
two pounds on your bike can be lost by spending an extra two thousand
dollars, or it can be lost from your gut by riding harder.
Conventional Wisdom, for what it's worth, is that it costs $1000 to
take a pound off of a bike. So, given that I have at least ten pounds
of extra flab on my body that I could stand to lose, I've got ten grand
worth of exercising to do before I start caring about weight. (This is
not meant to slam you nor anyone else - just to help put the weight
consideration in some perspective).

Now... if weight is off the table... lets look at durability. Ti will
last beyond the extinction of mankind. You'll never see rust on ti.
Steel, if cared for, will last longer than you will live. Both can
take an impact, be repaired, and give a great ride.

Carbon -- there are great comments above about the sketchiness of
carbon. I dont know how long a carbon frame will last.

A consideration that might seem shallow, but I think is totally
legitimate is the "bike porn" value of whatever decision you make.
Part of what I love about cycling is the beauty of the machine. I dont
think there is anything wrong with lusting after Ti, a sweet steel
frame, or even carbon. Hey, there is nothing wrong with riding OCLV
"because it is what Lance rides." Don't be a fashion slave... but for
bike porn value, I'd say that it is a toss-up.

Now... think about this too. You say this is your "last bike."
(snicker.... snort... laugh). If so, you want it to fit perfectly -
don't you? There are some carbon manufacturers who will build you a
custom frame. Jack Kane comes to mind. There are a LOT of ti and
steel manufacturers who will do the same thing. Spend some money and
get a custom frame.

Bottom line... if it were me and I could have one last bike for the
rest of my life, I would check out Independent Fab's ti or steel, or
Waterford's steel, and get them custom-built.

Have fun on your "last bike!" (just one last beer... just one last bet
at the track.... at least your addiction is a healthy one!)

02-28-2005, 01:05 PM

On 27 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0800, Edward wrote:

> I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> bike.

There is no last bike :-)

--
bpo gallery at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

02-28-2005, 01:05 PM

On 27 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0800, Edward wrote:

> I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> bike.

There is no last bike :-)

--
bpo gallery at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

02-28-2005, 02:57 PM

Michael Warner wrote:
> On 27 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0800, Edward wrote:
>
> > I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> > bike.
>
> There is no last bike :-)
>
> --
> bpo gallery at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Very "Matrix" of you.

02-28-2005, 02:57 PM

Michael Warner wrote:
> On 27 Feb 2005 20:45:38 -0800, Edward wrote:
>
> > I am starting to shop around for my next (and hopefully last) road
> > bike.
>
> There is no last bike :-)
>
> --
> bpo gallery at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Very "Matrix" of you.

02-28-2005, 03:16 PM

> Are you looking at carbon and Ti from a weight perspective? My
> philosophy is this - if you are concerned about weight, go get a
> body-fat measurment taken. If you're a guy who is over 12% body fat,
> then you have no excuse for buying a bike based on weight.

That is simply not true. Let's say you're a 200lb 6' person. Will the
difference between an 18lb bike and a 24lb one make the difference between
whether you can finish a ride or not? Probably not. Will the difference
between an 18lb bike and, say, a 21lb bike be noticeable when riding? In
most cases, yes. If you're standing on a hill, isolating yourself from the
weight of the bike underneath you, you can very easily notice a difference
between a bike that weighs a bit less than another. You're not just moving
that bike *up* the hill, but also side-to-side. It's not that you lose much
(if any?) energy as you move it one way then the other, but it most
definitely is a difference you can feel. The lighter bike will feel
livelier, and why that should be something ruled out of the equation... why
you'd think that somebody isn't worthy of something that feels better,
perhaps just different... I just don't get it. There's a lot more that goes
into purchasing a bike (or anything else for that matter) than just a desire
to have enough function to get by.

Do you *need* to have a computer that opens up your email and processes your
spam in 11.3 seconds instead of 15? How are those 4 seconds going to change
your day? They likely aren't, but somehow it changes your state of mind,
maybe. And maybe that's worth paying for, for some. And for others it
doesn't seem like a big deal that it takes 2 minutes to download and process
their spam on a slow analog line. They're perfectly happy with it. But is
somebody telling the person with the DSL line and the 3.2ghz processor and
the latest NVidia 6800+ graphics card that they're not worthy of it because
they're a lousy game player? Well, maybe they are, but it seems rude either
way.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

"Velo Psycho" <mjralias-google@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109593282.481294.108650@o13g2000cwo.googlegr oups.com...
> Your LAST bike? Hah! Anyone contemplating Carbon or Ti is someone
> with at least a mild bike addiction! It won't be your last bike. I
> bought an Independent Fab Crown Jewel Ti.... and two months later I HAD
> to have a Bianchi Pista. Then, I saw a lovely hand-made steel touring
> frame that I had to have.... the stable grows and occasionally you sell
> one off... but bull**** your wife, not us.

>
> Ok... so... now that we admit that we have a problem, we can go
> forward.
>
> I have to echo Goose somewhat. Why is the choice between Carbon and
> Ti? If you're looking for a great quality bike, steel is definitely
> not to be ruled out. I've owned carbon, steel, ti, and aluminum, and
> I've liked the ride of the steel bikes the best. I still kick myself
> for selling my Waterford back in grad school. Today, I've got a
> bianchi steel bike, a Gios, and an Independent Fab Ti Crown Jewel. The
> IF is fantastic... and will last forever.... but the 10 year old
> bianchi eros rides just as nice.
>
> The ride difference is this - the IF seems to flex a lot - but never in
> the wrong direction. I can hammer the pedals without tourqing the rear
> triangle - which happened on a waterford RS-11. My waterford made from
> 853 steel never did that. The Gios Lite is a pretty inexpensive steel
> frame, but rides wonderfully.
>
> I'm not a fan of carbon. I don't like the ride quality of what I have
> sampled. I personally don't even like the carbon fork on my IF. I
> really preferred the steel fork on my Waterford (oh I miss her) and the
> steel fork on my Gios. Yes, the carbon is more damping of vibration
> and almost acts as a suspension fork - but I prefer steel.
>
> Are you looking at carbon and Ti from a weight perspective? My
> philosophy is this - if you are concerned about weight, go get a
> body-fat measurment taken. If you're a guy who is over 12% body fat,
> then you have no excuse for buying a bike based on weight.
>
> If you're looking at your *last* bike, or if you can even say that
> knowing that it isn't true... then I presume that nobody is sponsoring
> you. Meaning again, weight should not be a concern at all. An extra
> two pounds on your bike can be lost by spending an extra two thousand
> dollars, or it can be lost from your gut by riding harder.
> Conventional Wisdom, for what it's worth, is that it costs $1000 to
> take a pound off of a bike. So, given that I have at least ten pounds
> of extra flab on my body that I could stand to lose, I've got ten grand
> worth of exercising to do before I start caring about weight. (This is
> not meant to slam you nor anyone else - just to help put the weight
> consideration in some perspective).
>
> Now... if weight is off the table... lets look at durability. Ti will
> last beyond the extinction of mankind. You'll never see rust on ti.
> Steel, if cared for, will last longer than you will live. Both can
> take an impact, be repaired, and give a great ride.
>
> Carbon -- there are great comments above about the sketchiness of
> carbon. I dont know how long a carbon frame will last.
>
> A consideration that might seem shallow, but I think is totally
> legitimate is the "bike porn" value of whatever decision you make.
> Part of what I love about cycling is the beauty of the machine. I dont
> think there is anything wrong with lusting after Ti, a sweet steel
> frame, or even carbon. Hey, there is nothing wrong with riding OCLV
> "because it is what Lance rides." Don't be a fashion slave... but for
> bike porn value, I'd say that it is a toss-up.
>
> Now... think about this too. You say this is your "last bike."
> (snicker.... snort... laugh). If so, you want it to fit perfectly -
> don't you? There are some carbon manufacturers who will build you a
> custom frame. Jack Kane comes to mind. There are a LOT of ti and
> steel manufacturers who will do the same thing. Spend some money and
> get a custom frame.
>
> Bottom line... if it were me and I could have one last bike for the
> rest of my life, I would check out Independent Fab's ti or steel, or
> Waterford's steel, and get them custom-built.
>
> Have fun on your "last bike!" (just one last beer... just one last bet
> at the track.... at least your addiction is a healthy one!)
>

02-28-2005, 03:16 PM

> Are you looking at carbon and Ti from a weight perspective? My
> philosophy is this - if you are concerned about weight, go get a
> body-fat measurment taken. If you're a guy who is over 12% body fat,
> then you have no excuse for buying a bike based on weight.

That is simply not true. Let's say you're a 200lb 6' person. Will the
difference between an 18lb bike and a 24lb one make the difference between
whether you can finish a ride or not? Probably not. Will the difference
between an 18lb bike and, say, a 21lb bike be noticeable when riding? In
most cases, yes. If you're standing on a hill, isolating yourself from the
weight of the bike underneath you, you can very easily notice a difference
between a bike that weighs a bit less than another. You're not just moving
that bike *up* the hill, but also side-to-side. It's not that you lose much
(if any?) energy as you move it one way then the other, but it most
definitely is a difference you can feel. The lighter bike will feel
livelier, and why that should be something ruled out of the equation... why
you'd think that somebody isn't worthy of something that feels better,
perhaps just different... I just don't get it. There's a lot more that goes
into purchasing a bike (or anything else for that matter) than just a desire
to have enough function to get by.

Do you *need* to have a computer that opens up your email and processes your
spam in 11.3 seconds instead of 15? How are those 4 seconds going to change
your day? They likely aren't, but somehow it changes your state of mind,
maybe. And maybe that's worth paying for, for some. And for others it
doesn't seem like a big deal that it takes 2 minutes to download and process
their spam on a slow analog line. They're perfectly happy with it. But is
somebody telling the person with the DSL line and the 3.2ghz processor and
the latest NVidia 6800+ graphics card that they're not worthy of it because
they're a lousy game player? Well, maybe they are, but it seems rude either
way.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member

"Velo Psycho" <mjralias-google@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109593282.481294.108650@o13g2000cwo.googlegr oups.com...
> Your LAST bike? Hah! Anyone contemplating Carbon or Ti is someone
> with at least a mild bike addiction! It won't be your last bike. I
> bought an Independent Fab Crown Jewel Ti.... and two months later I HAD
> to have a Bianchi Pista. Then, I saw a lovely hand-made steel touring
> frame that I had to have.... the stable grows and occasionally you sell
> one off... but bull**** your wife, not us.

>
> Ok... so... now that we admit that we have a problem, we can go
> forward.
>
> I have to echo Goose somewhat. Why is the choice between Carbon and
> Ti? If you're looking for a great quality bike, steel is definitely
> not to be ruled out. I've owned carbon, steel, ti, and aluminum, and
> I've liked the ride of the steel bikes the best. I still kick myself
> for selling my Waterford back in grad school. Today, I've got a
> bianchi steel bike, a Gios, and an Independent Fab Ti Crown Jewel. The
> IF is fantastic... and will last forever.... but the 10 year old
> bianchi eros rides just as nice.
>
> The ride difference is this - the IF seems to flex a lot - but never in
> the wrong direction. I can hammer the pedals without tourqing the rear
> triangle - which happened on a waterford RS-11. My waterford made from
> 853 steel never did that. The Gios Lite is a pretty inexpensive steel
> frame, but rides wonderfully.
>
> I'm not a fan of carbon. I don't like the ride quality of what I have
> sampled. I personally don't even like the carbon fork on my IF. I
> really preferred the steel fork on my Waterford (oh I miss her) and the
> steel fork on my Gios. Yes, the carbon is more damping of vibration
> and almost acts as a suspension fork - but I prefer steel.
>
> Are you looking at carbon and Ti from a weight perspective? My
> philosophy is this - if you are concerned about weight, go get a
> body-fat measurment taken. If you're a guy who is over 12% body fat,
> then you have no excuse for buying a bike based on weight.
>
> If you're looking at your *last* bike, or if you can even say that
> knowing that it isn't true... then I presume that nobody is sponsoring
> you. Meaning again, weight should not be a concern at all. An extra
> two pounds on your bike can be lost by spending an extra two thousand
> dollars, or it can be lost from your gut by riding harder.
> Conventional Wisdom, for what it's worth, is that it costs $1000 to
> take a pound off of a bike. So, given that I have at least ten pounds
> of extra flab on my body that I could stand to lose, I've got ten grand
> worth of exercising to do before I start caring about weight. (This is
> not meant to slam you nor anyone else - just to help put the weight
> consideration in some perspective).
>
> Now... if weight is off the table... lets look at durability. Ti will
> last beyond the extinction of mankind. You'll never see rust on ti.
> Steel, if cared for, will last longer than you will live. Both can
> take an impact, be repaired, and give a great ride.
>
> Carbon -- there are great comments above about the sketchiness of
> carbon. I dont know how long a carbon frame will last.
>
> A consideration that might seem shallow, but I think is totally
> legitimate is the "bike porn" value of whatever decision you make.
> Part of what I love about cycling is the beauty of the machine. I dont
> think there is anything wrong with lusting after Ti, a sweet steel
> frame, or even carbon. Hey, there is nothing wrong with riding OCLV
> "because it is what Lance rides." Don't be a fashion slave... but for
> bike porn value, I'd say that it is a toss-up.
>
> Now... think about this too. You say this is your "last bike."
> (snicker.... snort... laugh). If so, you want it to fit perfectly -
> don't you? There are some carbon manufacturers who will build you a
> custom frame. Jack Kane comes to mind. There are a LOT of ti and
> steel manufacturers who will do the same thing. Spend some money and
> get a custom frame.
>
> Bottom line... if it were me and I could have one last bike for the
> rest of my life, I would check out Independent Fab's ti or steel, or
> Waterford's steel, and get them custom-built.
>
> Have fun on your "last bike!" (just one last beer... just one last bet
> at the track.... at least your addiction is a healthy one!)
>

02-28-2005, 04:22 PM

The argument I have always gotten disgusted with is the one that starts:
"You have more money than you know what to do with if...." or "The only
person who would buy one of those would be someone with more money than
sense...."

It's always seemed a little holier than thou to me.

Pat in TX

02-28-2005, 04:22 PM

The argument I have always gotten disgusted with is the one that starts:
"You have more money than you know what to do with if...." or "The only
person who would buy one of those would be someone with more money than
sense...."

It's always seemed a little holier than thou to me.

Pat in TX

02-28-2005, 06:12 PM

>Carbon -- there are great comments above about the sketchiness of
>carbon. I dont know how long a carbon frame will last.

I can only speak towards the Trek OCLVs, as that is what I have first hand
experience with:

These frames have been produced for nearly 15 years now, so the industry and
user community have more than a little experience with them. At least in
Trek's case, the numbers are working out so that they continue to offer
their lifetime warranty.

Although I would give the nod towards Ti or steel for repairability, that
doesn't mean carbon is *not* repairable.

I've had a rear dropout replaced on my OCLV at no more cost than it would be
to do similar work on a Ti or steel frame. I've also seen crash-damaged rear
triangles replaced on OCLVs.

While there are certainly circumstances where the cost to repair a carbon
frame will exceed the cost of a new frame, the same situation exists with
other materials.

A real difference will be the need to rely on the manufacturer for any
repair of a carbon frame, while other options often exist for repair of ti
and steel frames.

Chris Neary
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh