Hit and Run - Page 50 - Cycling Mob: Road Cycling, Mountain Biking and More

06-06-2004, 02:44 PM

>>>>>Baloney. If a cyclist continues to get himself in
>>>>>near miss situations with law breaking motorists on
>>>>>the same road, there's something wrong with the cyclist.
>>
>>The post quoted above blames the cyclist for _getting himself_
>>in near-miss situations with law-breaking motorists.
>>How do you parse that into _not_ blaming the cyclist??
>
> No blame stated, and no blame assigned.

If the phrase _there's something wrong with the cyclist_ is not an
assignation of blame for _getting himself_ in near-miss situations with
law-breaking motorists, then what is it??

--
It's not about anger -- it's about peace.
It's not about power -- it's about grace.
It's not about knowing your enemy -- it's about knowing yourself.

06-06-2004, 07:23 PM

Someone wrote:

> >>>>>Baloney. If a cyclist continues to get himself in
> >>>>>near miss situations with law breaking motorists on
> >>>>>the same road, there's something wrong with the cyclist.
> >>
> >>The post quoted above blames the cyclist for _getting himself_
> >>in near-miss situations with law-breaking motorists.
> >>How do you parse that into _not_ blaming the cyclist??
> >
> > No blame stated, and no blame assigned.
>
> If the phrase _there's something wrong with the cyclist_ is not an
> assignation of blame for _getting himself_ in near-miss situations with
> law-breaking motorists, then what is it??

I'm going to stop answering these questions now. There appears to be
no possible benefit in doing so.

Regarding cycling, the Sequoia 200k today was a great ride. Lots of
quiet roads with redwood trees, blue skies and warm air, and several
really fun climbs. Almost no driver misbehavior, except one pickup
truck (driver, not the truck) that blew its horn at length every
time it passed a cyclist. At least it passed safely and didn't throw
anything.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

06-06-2004, 07:23 PM

Someone wrote:

> >>>>>Baloney. If a cyclist continues to get himself in
> >>>>>near miss situations with law breaking motorists on
> >>>>>the same road, there's something wrong with the cyclist.
> >>
> >>The post quoted above blames the cyclist for _getting himself_
> >>in near-miss situations with law-breaking motorists.
> >>How do you parse that into _not_ blaming the cyclist??
> >
> > No blame stated, and no blame assigned.
>
> If the phrase _there's something wrong with the cyclist_ is not an
> assignation of blame for _getting himself_ in near-miss situations with
> law-breaking motorists, then what is it??

I'm going to stop answering these questions now. There appears to be
no possible benefit in doing so.

Regarding cycling, the Sequoia 200k today was a great ride. Lots of
quiet roads with redwood trees, blue skies and warm air, and several
really fun climbs. Almost no driver misbehavior, except one pickup
truck (driver, not the truck) that blew its horn at length every
time it passed a cyclist. At least it passed safely and didn't throw
anything.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

06-06-2004, 07:23 PM

Someone wrote:

> >>>>>Baloney. If a cyclist continues to get himself in
> >>>>>near miss situations with law breaking motorists on
> >>>>>the same road, there's something wrong with the cyclist.
> >>
> >>The post quoted above blames the cyclist for _getting himself_
> >>in near-miss situations with law-breaking motorists.
> >>How do you parse that into _not_ blaming the cyclist??
> >
> > No blame stated, and no blame assigned.
>
> If the phrase _there's something wrong with the cyclist_ is not an
> assignation of blame for _getting himself_ in near-miss situations with
> law-breaking motorists, then what is it??

I'm going to stop answering these questions now. There appears to be
no possible benefit in doing so.

Regarding cycling, the Sequoia 200k today was a great ride. Lots of
quiet roads with redwood trees, blue skies and warm air, and several
really fun climbs. Almost no driver misbehavior, except one pickup
truck (driver, not the truck) that blew its horn at length every
time it passed a cyclist. At least it passed safely and didn't throw
anything.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

06-06-2004, 07:23 PM

Someone wrote:

> >>>>>Baloney. If a cyclist continues to get himself in
> >>>>>near miss situations with law breaking motorists on
> >>>>>the same road, there's something wrong with the cyclist.
> >>
> >>The post quoted above blames the cyclist for _getting himself_
> >>in near-miss situations with law-breaking motorists.
> >>How do you parse that into _not_ blaming the cyclist??
> >
> > No blame stated, and no blame assigned.
>
> If the phrase _there's something wrong with the cyclist_ is not an
> assignation of blame for _getting himself_ in near-miss situations with
> law-breaking motorists, then what is it??

I'm going to stop answering these questions now. There appears to be
no possible benefit in doing so.

Regarding cycling, the Sequoia 200k today was a great ride. Lots of
quiet roads with redwood trees, blue skies and warm air, and several
really fun climbs. Almost no driver misbehavior, except one pickup
truck (driver, not the truck) that blew its horn at length every
time it passed a cyclist. At least it passed safely and didn't throw
anything.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

06-06-2004, 07:23 PM

Someone wrote:

> >>>>>Baloney. If a cyclist continues to get himself in
> >>>>>near miss situations with law breaking motorists on
> >>>>>the same road, there's something wrong with the cyclist.
> >>
> >>The post quoted above blames the cyclist for _getting himself_
> >>in near-miss situations with law-breaking motorists.
> >>How do you parse that into _not_ blaming the cyclist??
> >
> > No blame stated, and no blame assigned.
>
> If the phrase _there's something wrong with the cyclist_ is not an
> assignation of blame for _getting himself_ in near-miss situations with
> law-breaking motorists, then what is it??

I'm going to stop answering these questions now. There appears to be
no possible benefit in doing so.

Regarding cycling, the Sequoia 200k today was a great ride. Lots of
quiet roads with redwood trees, blue skies and warm air, and several
really fun climbs. Almost no driver misbehavior, except one pickup
truck (driver, not the truck) that blew its horn at length every
time it passed a cyclist. At least it passed safely and didn't throw
anything.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

06-06-2004, 08:24 PM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
Zoot Katz <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> writes:
> Sat, 05 Jun 2004 11:06:42 -0400, <40c1df90$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].edu>,
> Frank Krygowski <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>
>>How would you have the button in reach of a cyclist, without having it
>>be a collision hazard?
>>
>>What if a cyclist intended to make a left turn? Would he push the
>>button on the right side of the road, then drag the bike over toward the
>>left?
>
> Yes, or ignore the button altogether and trust the buried sensors to
> pick up the bike.

Earles & 45th, and 45th & Kerr are a couple of intersections
with both sensor-loop and push-button options; there are, of
course, others, but maybe not enough. I've spotted a few places
having almost /every/ kind of pavement cut: circle, diamond and
double-rectangle, all overlapping each other. Generally it seems
the double-rectangle is the real one.

> Unfortunately, they're most often stuck on a post at the curb. Some
> are on small diverter islands in the center of a traffic calmed
> street.

The one at 37th & Main is especially convenient for hanging a
left onto south-bound Main off east-bound 37th. Likewise
coming off of north-bound Ontario onto east-bound King Edward.
Ontario & 49th also springs to mind, as well as Ontario & 16th.

> Many streets, especially around schools, that aren't yet specifically
> designated cycling routes are getting them too.
>
> I've not yet noticed any intersections with punch buttons accessible
> from both the left and right sides of the lane.

Of course those push-buttons on the little centre islands can be
treated as straight-through/left-turn lanes, while the uncontrolled,
un-islanded portion of the street to the right is a sort of 'right-
turn-only' lane. In fact, according to the signage, it's /supposed/
to be for cars, but many of 'em go straight through, and some even
turn left from there.

If the street you're riding on is fairly non-busy and wide enough,
it's generally no sweat to push the right-side button and
carefully & warily do an 0-turn and come up on the left of your
(unstriped) 'lane'. Although the light may well change in your
favour while you're busy going through all that maneouvering.
If it's a narrower unstriped street, I'd just as well be rightward
anyway, having been clobbered once by someone hanging a left off
the cross street and cutting the corner -- right into me.

> There's only certain times of day at some intersections that I even
> bother to use them. I figure if I punch the button then I'd better
> wait for the light but there's often breaks in cross traffic sooner
> than the light cycle stops it. That and the sequence is usually far
> longer than it takes a bicycle to clear the intersection. Sure,
> they're handy sometimes but mostly I don't need them.

I'm very much the same way. On the more frequently used routes
there's often a rider coming the other way who pushes the button
on their side of the intersection anyway, or a pedestrian, while
you're waiting for a break in the traffic. It's handy to keep a
whether-eye open for that coming up, when setting-up for a
left turn.

Where sight-lines are particularly bad because of humps & hills
(like 23rd & Fraser), I /really/ appreciate push-button lights.
That's why I think there should be one at Dumfries & King Edward/
Kingsway, if they're going to push a bike route through there.

I'm loathe to push the button when there's just li'l ol' me
crossing the intersection. If I see anyone approaching from
a distance, ahead or behind, I'll wait for them and time my
button-push so we can all use the light. I especially give
that courtesy to huffing-&-puffing freds struggling to make
the light. I get a lot of 'Thank you-s,' doing that.

Funny thing is, the timing of some of these lights is instantaneous
(37th & Fraser), while others appear more arbitrary (37th & Main).
It's a real PITA to push the button, wait for the light, and it
finally changes in your favour when there's nobody there and
you've got a break in the cross traffic anyway. Or, as you say,
pass-up on breaks in the traffic while waiting for your light,
and end up stopping a bunch of people when the light finally
does change.

I think just the fact that there are traffic light signals at
all at such intersections works in our favour, whether we
push the button or not. I think the traffic-light fixtures
hanging up there serve well, just by alerting the drivers to
be aware of cross traffic.

The City seems reluctant to put push-button lights on King Edward,
even though quite a number of our bike routes cross it.
Interesting, eh?

cheers,
Tom

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06-06-2004, 08:24 PM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
Zoot Katz <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> writes:
> Sat, 05 Jun 2004 11:06:42 -0400, <40c1df90$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].edu>,
> Frank Krygowski <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>
>>How would you have the button in reach of a cyclist, without having it
>>be a collision hazard?
>>
>>What if a cyclist intended to make a left turn? Would he push the
>>button on the right side of the road, then drag the bike over toward the
>>left?
>
> Yes, or ignore the button altogether and trust the buried sensors to
> pick up the bike.

Earles & 45th, and 45th & Kerr are a couple of intersections
with both sensor-loop and push-button options; there are, of
course, others, but maybe not enough. I've spotted a few places
having almost /every/ kind of pavement cut: circle, diamond and
double-rectangle, all overlapping each other. Generally it seems
the double-rectangle is the real one.

> Unfortunately, they're most often stuck on a post at the curb. Some
> are on small diverter islands in the center of a traffic calmed
> street.

The one at 37th & Main is especially convenient for hanging a
left onto south-bound Main off east-bound 37th. Likewise
coming off of north-bound Ontario onto east-bound King Edward.
Ontario & 49th also springs to mind, as well as Ontario & 16th.

> Many streets, especially around schools, that aren't yet specifically
> designated cycling routes are getting them too.
>
> I've not yet noticed any intersections with punch buttons accessible
> from both the left and right sides of the lane.

Of course those push-buttons on the little centre islands can be
treated as straight-through/left-turn lanes, while the uncontrolled,
un-islanded portion of the street to the right is a sort of 'right-
turn-only' lane. In fact, according to the signage, it's /supposed/
to be for cars, but many of 'em go straight through, and some even
turn left from there.

If the street you're riding on is fairly non-busy and wide enough,
it's generally no sweat to push the right-side button and
carefully & warily do an 0-turn and come up on the left of your
(unstriped) 'lane'. Although the light may well change in your
favour while you're busy going through all that maneouvering.
If it's a narrower unstriped street, I'd just as well be rightward
anyway, having been clobbered once by someone hanging a left off
the cross street and cutting the corner -- right into me.

> There's only certain times of day at some intersections that I even
> bother to use them. I figure if I punch the button then I'd better
> wait for the light but there's often breaks in cross traffic sooner
> than the light cycle stops it. That and the sequence is usually far
> longer than it takes a bicycle to clear the intersection. Sure,
> they're handy sometimes but mostly I don't need them.

I'm very much the same way. On the more frequently used routes
there's often a rider coming the other way who pushes the button
on their side of the intersection anyway, or a pedestrian, while
you're waiting for a break in the traffic. It's handy to keep a
whether-eye open for that coming up, when setting-up for a
left turn.

Where sight-lines are particularly bad because of humps & hills
(like 23rd & Fraser), I /really/ appreciate push-button lights.
That's why I think there should be one at Dumfries & King Edward/
Kingsway, if they're going to push a bike route through there.

I'm loathe to push the button when there's just li'l ol' me
crossing the intersection. If I see anyone approaching from
a distance, ahead or behind, I'll wait for them and time my
button-push so we can all use the light. I especially give
that courtesy to huffing-&-puffing freds struggling to make
the light. I get a lot of 'Thank you-s,' doing that.

Funny thing is, the timing of some of these lights is instantaneous
(37th & Fraser), while others appear more arbitrary (37th & Main).
It's a real PITA to push the button, wait for the light, and it
finally changes in your favour when there's nobody there and
you've got a break in the cross traffic anyway. Or, as you say,
pass-up on breaks in the traffic while waiting for your light,
and end up stopping a bunch of people when the light finally
does change.

I think just the fact that there are traffic light signals at
all at such intersections works in our favour, whether we
push the button or not. I think the traffic-light fixtures
hanging up there serve well, just by alerting the drivers to
be aware of cross traffic.

The City seems reluctant to put push-button lights on King Edward,
even though quite a number of our bike routes cross it.
Interesting, eh?

cheers,
Tom

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Above address is just a spam midden.
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06-06-2004, 08:24 PM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
Zoot Katz <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> writes:
> Sat, 05 Jun 2004 11:06:42 -0400, <40c1df90$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].edu>,
> Frank Krygowski <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>
>>How would you have the button in reach of a cyclist, without having it
>>be a collision hazard?
>>
>>What if a cyclist intended to make a left turn? Would he push the
>>button on the right side of the road, then drag the bike over toward the
>>left?
>
> Yes, or ignore the button altogether and trust the buried sensors to
> pick up the bike.

Earles & 45th, and 45th & Kerr are a couple of intersections
with both sensor-loop and push-button options; there are, of
course, others, but maybe not enough. I've spotted a few places
having almost /every/ kind of pavement cut: circle, diamond and
double-rectangle, all overlapping each other. Generally it seems
the double-rectangle is the real one.

> Unfortunately, they're most often stuck on a post at the curb. Some
> are on small diverter islands in the center of a traffic calmed
> street.

The one at 37th & Main is especially convenient for hanging a
left onto south-bound Main off east-bound 37th. Likewise
coming off of north-bound Ontario onto east-bound King Edward.
Ontario & 49th also springs to mind, as well as Ontario & 16th.

> Many streets, especially around schools, that aren't yet specifically
> designated cycling routes are getting them too.
>
> I've not yet noticed any intersections with punch buttons accessible
> from both the left and right sides of the lane.

Of course those push-buttons on the little centre islands can be
treated as straight-through/left-turn lanes, while the uncontrolled,
un-islanded portion of the street to the right is a sort of 'right-
turn-only' lane. In fact, according to the signage, it's /supposed/
to be for cars, but many of 'em go straight through, and some even
turn left from there.

If the street you're riding on is fairly non-busy and wide enough,
it's generally no sweat to push the right-side button and
carefully & warily do an 0-turn and come up on the left of your
(unstriped) 'lane'. Although the light may well change in your
favour while you're busy going through all that maneouvering.
If it's a narrower unstriped street, I'd just as well be rightward
anyway, having been clobbered once by someone hanging a left off
the cross street and cutting the corner -- right into me.

> There's only certain times of day at some intersections that I even
> bother to use them. I figure if I punch the button then I'd better
> wait for the light but there's often breaks in cross traffic sooner
> than the light cycle stops it. That and the sequence is usually far
> longer than it takes a bicycle to clear the intersection. Sure,
> they're handy sometimes but mostly I don't need them.

I'm very much the same way. On the more frequently used routes
there's often a rider coming the other way who pushes the button
on their side of the intersection anyway, or a pedestrian, while
you're waiting for a break in the traffic. It's handy to keep a
whether-eye open for that coming up, when setting-up for a
left turn.

Where sight-lines are particularly bad because of humps & hills
(like 23rd & Fraser), I /really/ appreciate push-button lights.
That's why I think there should be one at Dumfries & King Edward/
Kingsway, if they're going to push a bike route through there.

I'm loathe to push the button when there's just li'l ol' me
crossing the intersection. If I see anyone approaching from
a distance, ahead or behind, I'll wait for them and time my
button-push so we can all use the light. I especially give
that courtesy to huffing-&-puffing freds struggling to make
the light. I get a lot of 'Thank you-s,' doing that.

Funny thing is, the timing of some of these lights is instantaneous
(37th & Fraser), while others appear more arbitrary (37th & Main).
It's a real PITA to push the button, wait for the light, and it
finally changes in your favour when there's nobody there and
you've got a break in the cross traffic anyway. Or, as you say,
pass-up on breaks in the traffic while waiting for your light,
and end up stopping a bunch of people when the light finally
does change.

I think just the fact that there are traffic light signals at
all at such intersections works in our favour, whether we
push the button or not. I think the traffic-light fixtures
hanging up there serve well, just by alerting the drivers to
be aware of cross traffic.

The City seems reluctant to put push-button lights on King Edward,
even though quite a number of our bike routes cross it.
Interesting, eh?

cheers,
Tom

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-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
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06-06-2004, 08:24 PM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
Zoot Katz <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> writes:
> Sat, 05 Jun 2004 11:06:42 -0400, <40c1df90$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].edu>,
> Frank Krygowski <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote:
>
>>How would you have the button in reach of a cyclist, without having it
>>be a collision hazard?
>>
>>What if a cyclist intended to make a left turn? Would he push the
>>button on the right side of the road, then drag the bike over toward the
>>left?
>
> Yes, or ignore the button altogether and trust the buried sensors to
> pick up the bike.

Earles & 45th, and 45th & Kerr are a couple of intersections
with both sensor-loop and push-button options; there are, of
course, others, but maybe not enough. I've spotted a few places
having almost /every/ kind of pavement cut: circle, diamond and
double-rectangle, all overlapping each other. Generally it seems
the double-rectangle is the real one.

> Unfortunately, they're most often stuck on a post at the curb. Some
> are on small diverter islands in the center of a traffic calmed
> street.

The one at 37th & Main is especially convenient for hanging a
left onto south-bound Main off east-bound 37th. Likewise
coming off of north-bound Ontario onto east-bound King Edward.
Ontario & 49th also springs to mind, as well as Ontario & 16th.

> Many streets, especially around schools, that aren't yet specifically
> designated cycling routes are getting them too.
>
> I've not yet noticed any intersections with punch buttons accessible
> from both the left and right sides of the lane.

Of course those push-buttons on the little centre islands can be
treated as straight-through/left-turn lanes, while the uncontrolled,
un-islanded portion of the street to the right is a sort of 'right-
turn-only' lane. In fact, according to the signage, it's /supposed/
to be for cars, but many of 'em go straight through, and some even
turn left from there.

If the street you're riding on is fairly non-busy and wide enough,
it's generally no sweat to push the right-side button and
carefully & warily do an 0-turn and come up on the left of your
(unstriped) 'lane'. Although the light may well change in your
favour while you're busy going through all that maneouvering.
If it's a narrower unstriped street, I'd just as well be rightward
anyway, having been clobbered once by someone hanging a left off
the cross street and cutting the corner -- right into me.

> There's only certain times of day at some intersections that I even
> bother to use them. I figure if I punch the button then I'd better
> wait for the light but there's often breaks in cross traffic sooner
> than the light cycle stops it. That and the sequence is usually far
> longer than it takes a bicycle to clear the intersection. Sure,
> they're handy sometimes but mostly I don't need them.

I'm very much the same way. On the more frequently used routes
there's often a rider coming the other way who pushes the button
on their side of the intersection anyway, or a pedestrian, while
you're waiting for a break in the traffic. It's handy to keep a
whether-eye open for that coming up, when setting-up for a
left turn.

Where sight-lines are particularly bad because of humps & hills
(like 23rd & Fraser), I /really/ appreciate push-button lights.
That's why I think there should be one at Dumfries & King Edward/
Kingsway, if they're going to push a bike route through there.

I'm loathe to push the button when there's just li'l ol' me
crossing the intersection. If I see anyone approaching from
a distance, ahead or behind, I'll wait for them and time my
button-push so we can all use the light. I especially give
that courtesy to huffing-&-puffing freds struggling to make
the light. I get a lot of 'Thank you-s,' doing that.

Funny thing is, the timing of some of these lights is instantaneous
(37th & Fraser), while others appear more arbitrary (37th & Main).
It's a real PITA to push the button, wait for the light, and it
finally changes in your favour when there's nobody there and
you've got a break in the cross traffic anyway. Or, as you say,
pass-up on breaks in the traffic while waiting for your light,
and end up stopping a bunch of people when the light finally
does change.

I think just the fact that there are traffic light signals at
all at such intersections works in our favour, whether we
push the button or not. I think the traffic-light fixtures
hanging up there serve well, just by alerting the drivers to
be aware of cross traffic.

The City seems reluctant to put push-button lights on King Edward,
even though quite a number of our bike routes cross it.
Interesting, eh?

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
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